Hi Julia/Tony et al.

I would agree with Tony, these are horse hyoids - I have recently finishing preparing a full horse skeleton and these bones you provide Julia are similar to the horse I have (male adult horse, 30yrs old, just under 16hands height).

Best wishes - Ruth

PS - I don't have photos to hand, but could supply some in about 2 weeks or so.


On 30 August 2012 13:44, Julia Cussans <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hello Tony,
 
If you have the time and opportunity to take photos then I would be certainly interested to see them, but please don't go to any special effort. Any later than the middle of next week and I suspect your efforts will be in vain as I finish work a week tomorrow before taking 6 month maternity leave. It may be quicker and easier for you to have a quick look at your reference specimen next to my photos and let me know what you think, but please dont put yourself out.
 
Many thanks,
 
Julia




Julia Cussans
Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)

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----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Gouldwell, Anthony J.
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please

Julia,

 

Horse!

 

I may not be able to get pictures of our ref. material organised before the middle of next week, but can if you need them.

 

Tony.

 

 

 

From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Cussans
Sent: 30 August 2012 09:23
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please

 

Hello All again,

 

It seems I may have to back track a little. Having looked at the photos that Deb sent to me it seems certain that my bone is not a bird phalanx.

 

I must also apologise to those of you who suggested hyoid, that I dismissed in my previous email. I was only familiar with part of the hyoid apparatus - the stylohyoid, which being the largest part is the bit that I guess most people (certainly myself) are familiar with. Having found a single photograph of a full set of cattle hyoid bones on the internet (see link below) I now think my bone may be a thyrohyoid (the shorter pair of bones in the image). Unfortunately there is only the one view and no scale on this photo. Does anyone have these bones in their reference collection that they could compare my photos with or send pictures of? Obviously the bone may not be cattle, but some sort of large mammal appears most likely.

 

 

 

Many thanks for all your help again.

 

Best wishes,

 

Julia

 

 

 

 

Julia Cussans Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology) Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological Solutions 98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court Hertford Eastern Way Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds SG14 1AB Suffolk IP32 7AJ T: 01992 558 170 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at the originating address.

----- Original Message -----

To: "Julia Cussans" <[log in to unmask]>

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:51 PM

Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please

 

> Dear Julia: I have also been going around on a difficult phalanx I.D.
> also, which has caused me to examine all the possibilities you've
> mentioned with the help of the excellent comparative osteological
> collections at the University of Kansas. On this basis, I can tell you
> that:
>
> (1) The bone is certainly not a phalanx from a bird's wing. The only
> separate phalanx that any bird has in its wing, i.e. distal to the
> carpometacarpus, is quite differently shaped. By private EMail I will in a
> moment sent you an image of the 1st phalanx from the wing of a crane, Grus
> grus -- could also send you a swan, they both being large birds; and then
> you shall compare them yourself and see.
>
> (2) The bone is also not a phalanx from the leg of a bird. Almost all
> birds, even those that walk flat-footed such as swans or geese, have
> phalanges that curve fairly strongly downward. Of course eagles and
> gyrfalcons and big vultures and buzzards that have talons have phalanges
> that are quite markedly bowed.
>
> (3) The bone might be human, but before I'd want to bet my hat on that,
> I'd want to sit down directly with a human skeleton. Of particular note is
> the shallowly bifacial proximal articular surface, and the rather
> asymmetrical distal articulation, i.e. the lobes which form the medial vs.
> lateral parts of the distal articulation are of rather different size.
> This leads me to....
>
> (4) The possibility that this is the phalanx of a bear. Bear paws
> notorously look like human hands. The asymmetry of the distal articulation
> of your specimen tells me that the digits were angled outward, i.e.
> laterally, relative to an axis which would bisect the radius. So I'd sure
> have a look-see at a bear.
>
> Look for my EMail in a few moments, Julia, and also my sympathies....my
> mystery phalanx might embarassingly turn out to be a 2nd phalanx from a
> piglet, but then again, it might also be an African tortoise. We have yet
> to see! Cheers (ain't zooarch fun) -- Deb Bennett
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Many thanks to all those who replied again. I am fairly happy now that the
>> bone is the distal phalanx from the wing of a (very) large bird.
>>
>> The only large bird reference I have immediately available to me is a
>> greylag goose. While the distal phalanx of this specimen is the best match
>> I have found for the bone, the species is clearly not correct, the mystery
>> bone is a little longer and much more robust. If anyone has any further
>> suggestions I would be grateful to hear them.
>>
>> However in the mean time I am happy that it is fairly certainly not human,
>> which was my main concern at this stage.
>>
>> Many thanks again for all your help.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Julia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julia Cussans
>> Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>>
>> Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS Archaeological
>> Solutions
>>       98 - 100 Fore Street 6 Brunel Business Court
>>       Hertford Eastern Way
>>       Hertfordshire Bury St Edmunds
>>       SG14 1AB Suffolk
>>      IP32 7AJ
>>
>>
>>    T: 01992 558 170
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>>
>> The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
>> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or
>> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
>> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
>> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>> this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail at the
>> originating address.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: J.H. Yvinec
>>   To: 'Julia Cussans' ; [log in to unmask]
>>   Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:07 PM
>>   Subject: RE: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>>
>>
>>   Hello
>>
>>   All the bones have this "taphonomic" appearance ? I ask this because lot
>> of human bones have it. And my first think was human Ph.
>>
>>   Cheers
>>
>>
>>
>>   JHY
>>
>>
>>
>>   J.H. Yvinec
>>   Ingénieur de recherche INRAP,
>>   Laboratoire d'archéozoologie de Compiègne,
>>   UMR 7209 du CNRS, Archéozoologie, Archéobotanique : Sociétés, Pratiques
>> et Environnements
>>   CRAVO, 21 rue des Cordeliers 60200 Compiègne, France,
>>   tel : 33 (0)3 44 23 28 10
>>   <http://www.archeozoo.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   De : Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Julia Cussans
>>   Envoyé : mercredi 29 août 2012 13:32
>>   À : [log in to unmask]
>>   Objet : Re: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>>
>>
>>
>>   Hello again,
>>
>>
>>
>>   Many thanks to those of you who have sent suggestions as to what my
>> mystery bone might be, it is proving to be somewhat of a conundrum!
>>
>>
>>
>>   A couple of people have suggested that this might be human metapodial or
>> phalange. This was my first thought but having had a look through the
>> reference material available to me and several photos on the internet I
>> could not find a match. Is there anyone out there who is more familiar
>> with human bones who could perhaps confirm or refute this possibility?
>>
>>
>>
>>   Another possible suggestion is that it may be the phalange of a large
>> bird, again if anyone has any further comments on this I would be
>> interested to know.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Hyoid has also been suggested but I think given that it appears to have
>> articular ends this is unlikely.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Having had a look through some very poorly reproduced drawings of wolf
>> foot bones I had thought that 1st metatarsal may have been a
>> possibility, possibly of a large dog or wolf - again if anyone has
>> anyone has reference material they can compare my photos with and offer
>> an opinion I would be most grateful.
>>
>>
>>
>>   The link to the photos is still present in the email below.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Many thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>>   Julia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Julia Cussans
>>   Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>>
>>   Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
>>
>>         Archaeological Solutions
>>
>>
>>         98 - 100 Fore Street
>>        6 Brunel Business Court
>>
>>
>>         Hertford
>>        Eastern Way
>>
>>
>>         Hertfordshire
>>        Bury St Edmunds
>>
>>
>>         SG14 1AB
>>        Suffolk
>>
>>
>>
>>        IP32 7AJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   T: 01992 558 170
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>>
>>   The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments is
>> confidential information intended only for the use of individuals or
>> entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
>> recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution
>> or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
>> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
>> e-mail at the originating address.
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>     From: Julia Cussans
>>
>>     To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>     Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:34 AM
>>
>>     Subject: [ZOOARCH] Help with bone id please
>>
>>
>>
>>     Hello All,
>>
>>
>>
>>     Can anyone help me identify this bone? I think it should be some sort
>> of metapodial, but that is as far as I have got. I have uploaded some
>> photos onto zoobook. All suggestions welcome.
>>
>>
>>     http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/albums/mystery-bone-from-enf129454
>>
>>
>>
>>     Many thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Julia
>>
>>
>>     Julia Cussans
>>     Project Officer(Osteoarchaeology)
>>
>>     Visit our new Facebook page: ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS
>>
>>           Archaeological Solutions
>>
>>
>>           98 - 100 Fore Street
>>          6 Brunel Business Court
>>
>>
>>           Hertford
>>          Eastern Way
>>
>>
>>           Hertfordshire
>>          Bury St Edmunds
>>
>>
>>           SG14 1AB
>>          Suffolk
>>
>>
>>
>>          IP32 7AJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     T: 01992 558 170
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>>
>>     The information contained in this e-mail message and any attachments
>> is confidential information intended only for the use of individuals
>> or entities named above. If the reader of this message is not the
>> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
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>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us
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>>     No virus found in this message.
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