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hi all everyone is clearly right and Adel is spot on with what she has done regarding fitness to attend and run it by the OHP for assurance - the employee has resorted to the old chesnut of emotional bargaining - i wouldnt get involved any further you have taken the appropriate advice and pass back to management i would also stipulate that the employee has resorted to harassment and lodge a grievance if they have taken it to this point that you are left without any other option. You have been honest with them and they dont like it - well thats just tough and now they have resorted to this. Unfortunately it happens - i would now just put it to bed from your own perspective as it has grown arms and legs and advise you have nothing further to add. Call the RCN and get support and log this situation. We are not governed by the GMC so the employee can take it there if they want they wont do anything. Dont give this any more worry that you already have done - the case is closed for you best wishes steph nicoll On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:33, Lindsey Hall <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > It seems to me the employee is doing a great job of proving how unwell he is and how unclearly he is thinking. Either that or he is simply a rather unpleasant individual. The advice you already have is sound. You have done what you have been asked to do so bat it firmly back to HR and leave them to it. However good your advice and sound your judgement, it is questionable whether you can continue to be impartial from now on anyway. > > Lindsey > > From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adel > Sent: 20 August 2012 20:46 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > > Thanks andrea, > I had sent my oh report to the ohp we use who confirmed the report was good but to omit one section before sending to the employee which I did. > > The employee has given consent for me to now send a copy to Hr along with a copy of their letter they sent me. I would be happy to send Hr a copy as I believe this may help them gain a further understanding why when I send them the oh report I will advise them that it is there call whether they decide to refer to counselling ( I will provide Hr with the contact details of the lic counsellor I sourced near to where the employee lives) that way they can await the report etc. Also the employee has not returned the gp consent form although reported they would. > This way my involvement is now ceased as such and Hr now countine. > Hope this doesn't come across as harsh or passing the book but I feel my role has served it's purpose. But doesn't stop my worry now as I had tried to help the employee but it has not been viewed in this manner > Thanks again for your advice > Adel > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 20 Aug 2012, at 20:35, Andrea Martin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Well done for standing up for your professional judgement under a lot of pressure (including the threat of the GMC, pity they won’t be able to find you registered with them J). I would release the report as per their consent and send them a copy, but for your own support have the report checked by a peer/OHP and contact the RCN or similar for any further support or advice before sending. > > In terms of returning the letter they wrote to you, that is your call as this is now your property not theirs. I would keep it, but say that if they wish to write a further letter clarifying their position they are welcome to. They are likely to be feeling a bit uncomfortable as it sounds like they may have told you a bit too much information in the heat of the moment. > > Hope this is helpful, > > Andrea > > > From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adel > Sent: 20 August 2012 20:05 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > > Hi all, > Again looking for advice/ reassurance really. U may recall my last post about the employee off with depression and a referral to oh fir fittness to attend. Well I have been given consent now to send to Hr but had recieved a letter as an attachment initally outling they were nit happy with my recommemdations etc, stating in my opinion fit to attend based on the 4 questions in the SOM work book as well as my clinical assessment and corrospondence recieved by them via email / letter. Basically the letter states they feel they have no option but to send my report to the GMC. Also they had no intent on adding me as an addtional > Person in civil proceedings and asked me tonreconsuder my statements / recommemdations. I replyed by advising whilst factual information could be corrected if wring my opinion would remain unchanged. They since replyed consenting to me sending Hr a copy but also requested I send them the letter they sent too. > > Anyone any advice on what I should do now? This has upset me to some degree as I have tried to remain impartial but parts of the letter they wrote are incorrect but I have not engaged in a reply as I do not want to cause further issues. > Long winded sorry and again apologies for spelling am > On my iPhone. > Any advice would be greatly appreciated > Thanks > Adel > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 19 Aug 2012, at 09:55, sharon naylor <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > i had a member of my extended family go through a similar situation a couple of years back. Long story short - all the faffing about waiting for Gp reports/counselling assessments made her feel worse. In the end decided to go for ripping the plaster off quickly rather than slowly over a few weeks, attended the meetings, got distressed, got the sack and from that point on started to get better because it was over and she could move on. Worth thinking about it from that point of view..... > > Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 08:52:35 +0100 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > To: [log in to unmask] > > Thank you Sharon this is exactly the case. Management have agreed to pay for an assessment counselling session then wish to book the discliplinary and if the emloyee remains employed will pay for a further session. However i have not arranged counselling yet as the employee wishes to see my report first, I believe they will disagree with my opinon as I have more or less said delaying the process is likely to cause further issues and i have used the 4 questions from the society of occupational health medicine SOM used for assessing fittness to attend disciplinarys etc. But I have mentioned I do have concern for the employees mental health wellbeing and an assessment counselling session may help them put issues into perspective, as well as a gp report (although will act as Pt advocate) and possibly a review in 2-3 weeks if require by oh. > Will be glad whem this case is finished > Thanks for your advice > Adel > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 19 Aug 2012, at 08:28, sharon naylor <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Interesting that your dilemma arises from a case where there is pending disciplinary and the individual goes sick because of it. Then comes the inevitable situation where both "sides" try to manipulate OH for their own ends when in reality it has nothing to do with us. > > The first fact is that disciplinary procedures and clinical issues leading to absence are two entirely different things. People will get "stressed" by these management procedures and they wont like them, and yes, that might even make them more upset by it doesnt render then "unfit" to engage with the management procedures. In fact - these procedures are the only way they can present their case so it may be better for them to engage. Being absent from work does not mean they are unfit to attend meetings unless they are psychotic, cant understand whats going on, cant follow the procedure or understand the potential outcome. > > The second fact is that managers can continue the disciplinary in the employees absence - the employee has likely been referred by an over cautious manager who wants to blame someone else if the employee starts citing exacerbation of their medical condition > > In the past I have only answered the questions as outlined at the end of my second paragraph and have not discussed any "counselling" or similar. I have also stated that irrespective of my opinion it may well be that the GP`s (as his patients advocate) will differ and he may well advise his patient not to engage with processes, in which case management may well need to get a wiggle on and do their job (I normally say it more politely than that) > > Good luck - these cases are always contentious! > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 23:18:57 +0100 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > To: [log in to unmask] > > Thanks carr. > Would it be unreasonable for me to then send a copy via email, asking them to confirm reciept (this is there preferred method) and reply by close of play that day whether they consent or not. If they decide not to consent do I then have to advise Hr I cannot provide them with an oh report and the recommemdations I made ie counselling can not be made etc. Even though the employee asked there gp about counselling and the gp advised them to get it through work due to nhs waiting times. Therefore they would need to go back to gp to arrange. Also if they still provide me with Amra can I advise Hr the gp will act as the employees advocate therefore potentially biased / in support of the employee and there perceptions. > Ps employee absent from work now with depression after being told he would be facing disciplinary, oh assessment to determine fitness to attend disciplinary. > Thanks to all for advice so far > Adel > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 18 Aug 2012, at 20:19, kate owen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Adel, > > I have often sent reports to the individual prior to sending straight to HR to the extent that the other day I even said to an individual I will send you the report first (I was so sure that if I hadn't they would have found something to disagree with). These individuals can then deflect the whole situation away from themselves and I find it distracts management and HR from the real solutions as they get tied up with 'but the client said it isn't true' or 'we will have to get a second opinion'. > > Like Carr though I also ensure they have a limited time for turn around and inform them they can only 'withdraw consent' 'correct factual inaccuracies' or have their opinion relayed to HR/management in addition to the report. ie. they cannot change my advice. > > Best wishes > Kate > > > > From: Adel <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 18:37 > Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > > Thanks Tracy. > I have a feeling this case may go much further so want to ensure all is done corect. > Adel > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 18 Aug 2012, at 15:26, Tracy Turner <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Adel > > As far as I am aware it is only the GMC which stipulates this but as best practice most OHAs are following suit. I always ask consent to send it straigt to HR and so far I have not had anyone ask to see the report first. If someone wanted to see it I would let them though as it saves alot of fuss and bother later on if they chose to say that they were not in agreement with what was said etc. However my opinon would always remain in the report. > > Tracy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Adel <[log in to unmask]> > To: OCC-HEALTH <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 15:20 > Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] Consent > > Hello all, > Just looking for advice, does an employee have to give their consent prior to an > OHA being able to send a copy of the report to the referring Hr officer? > > They have requested to see the OH report before it is sent to Hr. > > Kind regards > Adel > > Sent from my iPhone > > ******************************** > Please remove this footer before replying. > > OCC-HEALTH ARCHIVES: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html > > CONFERENCES AND STUDY DAYS: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH > ******************************** Please remove this footer before replying. > OCC-HEALTH ARCHIVES:http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html > CONFERENCES AND STUDY DAYS:http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH > ******************************** Please remove this footer before replying. > OCC-HEALTH ARCHIVES: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html > CONFERENCES AND STUDY DAYS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH > > > ******************************** Please remove this footer before replying. 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