medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Chris,

Have to do a lot of snipping ----

At 17:16 01/08/2012, you wrote:

i don't believe so --it certainly seems complete and is the work of C.R.
Dodwell and Peter Clemoes, two of the finest ms. scholars of their
generation.

Quite true.

their introduction is quite thorough (60+ pages in the "elephant folio" format
dictated by the size of the ms. --i can send a .doc copy of it to anyone who
wishes one).

Bertram Colgrave was the general editor for the entire EEMF (Early English Manuscripts in Facsimile) Series published by Rosenkilde & Bagger. The OE Illustrated Hexateuch is no. 18 and is indeed "elephant folio" in size. Then, the Paris Psalter (BN 8824) is no. 8 and the volume is 47 cm x 34 cm (I just checked my notes) and is reduced 20 percent at that. Working musical texts tended to be oversize so as to be read from a distance and the Psalter is a Precentor's Psalter with instructions for 3 lead singers plus congregational responses. You should see some of the late Medieval and renaissance sheet music. Talk about huge!

Dodwell was, in addition, an art historian of very broad interest (though he
specialized in Anglo-Saxon art); so, for the illuminations, also of interest
is this contemporary study by Dodwell, expanding the context a bit, but based
primarily on a close examination of the OEH ms.:

C.R. Dodwell,â€œTechniques of Manuscript Painting in Anglo-Saxon Manuscripts,
in _Artigianato e tecnica nella societÃ nellâ€™ alto medioevo occidentale.
Settim. studio Centro ital. Studi alto medioevo_, XVIII, Spoleto, 1971, II,
pp. 643-683. Reprinted in his _Aspects of art of the eleventh and twelfth
centuries_ (London: Pindar Press, 1996), pp. 33-62.

> Thanks so much for answering me.

thanks for the occasion.

[snip]

> TennesseeBob (living where a manusvcript is graffitti on a water tower)

just think of them as a "chÃ¢teau de l'eau" and the graffitti as "art" and
consider yourself Blessed.

From: Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask]>

> Thank you for the url.

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Cotton_MS_Claudius_B_IV

don't thank me --that's straight from TBob. all the mss. he listed have urls

I have not had the time to read the list. I've been examining St. Gall 359. Double checking a number of things. (It's also on-line; though my photocopies are easier to study.)

My apologies and THANKS, Bob!

> The Hexateuch is the MS where on f. 125v I found the handwriting of
what had to be a youngster writing her pre-Rashi Hebrew alphabet. It
was a female, all right. She signed her name 3 times, Elizabeth,
spelled correctly in Hebrew -- with an Ayin.

as i said, my interest is (entirely) in the style of the illuminations, but,
given that, nothing much that might be discovered in that fantastic ms. would
surprise me, even a "pre-Rashi Hebrew" signature.

>Back in 1992, DRH

?

David R. Howlett -- and David checked the script with an expert at the BL and confirmed that it was a pre-Rashi script. Rashi lived from 1040-1105. Why is this important? For a number of reasons. First, it was assumed that Hebrew was unknown in ASE; second it was evidence of female scribes prior to the Norman Conquest; third, it indicated that females were trained as scribes following the same learning processes as those used to train young males.... and there are more reasons the dating is important.

>thought it was a grown woman; however, while the the fact that the letters
are uneven in size is not a sure indication of age, the writing is very much
that of someone who had not yet learned to hold a straight line. Someone who
was already writing OE or Latin would keep a line, if not yet well-practiced
in this new alphabet. It smacks of a child doing a "so there; I do know the
alphabet." All that lovely white space in the bottom margin to write on.....

an interesting idea.

Pre-Rashi Hebrew, written by a child.

Well, as you did manage to view the leaf after all...

i have occasionally come across examples of "romanesque" sculpture which i
suspected were done by somewhat aging sculptors --the images are
conceptualized with great Complexity and considerable Clarity, but lack a
certain level of Competence in the execution (or Realization in stone).

the only thing that i could think of which might account for this disparity
might be some degree of physical impairment which came with old age.

Oh, I can think of more reasons. For instance, conceptualization by the master of the sculpture studio; execution by assistants.

> Bob, it has been so many years, I really don't know what is missing.
> I do know that the huge dragon-boat Noah's ark illumination is not
there. I looked for it. Then, there are also incomplete illuminations
towards the back that I did not see.... but Chris did note that not
all of them are on-line.

Chris certainly did not mean to imply that "not all of them are on-line" at
the BL site

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Cotton_MS_Claudius_B_IV

since there are a paltry 8 leaves there --3 of which contain only text, the
other 5 with illuminations which, while polychromed, are not at all among the
best to be found in this magnificent ms., which has over 150 leaves (i.e.,
it's *huge*, both in format and in content --clearly, a De Lux project).

the majority of the illuminations are adorned with one to six scenes pen (or
brush) drawings, most of them finished, quite a few polychromed; but some
unfinished or, perhaps, partially finished in another hand.

Yes, incomplete, partially executed. Looks like someone ran out of money or time or the person who ordered the MS died. No scriptorium starts on such a job without its having been ordered. It's not the only de luxe MS where we can see that the leader/owner of a scriptorium/bookshop ran out of time -- the early 14th century Auchinleck MS was done by a bookshop owner who clearly ran out of time and had to sub-contract gatherings. Not too much left for you, Chris. The illuminations were cut out somewhere down the centuries.

i'm certainly not a manuscript fellow, but i know of no other pre-1200 ms.
which was conceived --and, mostly, executed-- on such a *vast* scale.

Well, there is the Eadwine (or Canterbury) Psalter. 12th century, so before 1200.

"The Eadwine Psalter (Cambridge, Trinity College MS R.17.1) is arguably the most ambitious manuscript produced in England in the twelfth century. Over a dozen scribes and artists combined to produce a book which contains five different version of the text of the Psalms, three in Latin, one in Old English, and one in Anglo-Norman, with a prologue, a commentary, and a concluding prayer to each Psalm. In addition, the most complex set of Psalter illustrations available, those from the ninth-century Utrecht Psalter, was adapted for the project; the largest known cycle of prefatory biblical pictorial narratives of the period was devised and happened as a pictorial preface; and every Psalm, prayer, and Canticle was given a set of fully illuminated major initials as well as gold and silver minor initials throughout. Several other noteworthy images feature in the book: a portrait of the 'Prince of Scribes', Eadwine himself, the depiction of a comet, and the two plans of the precinct waterworks of Canterbury Cathedral Priory installed c. 1160."

http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-00837-7.html

And the Eadwine was completed.

ah..., Chris did not realize that the whole ms. is available for viewing
(though not for downloading) if one clicks on one of the thumbnails, which
opens a new window. from there one can access any leaf by the menu box in the
upper right hand corner.

Yep. And you did manage to see what I was talking about.

for instance, Rochelle, here --in an expandable view-- is your "childish"
Hebrew interpolation on f. 125v:

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_claudius_b_iv_f125v

I already saw it. Interpolation? Hardly.

Chris, you are an art historian. My work is with writing systems and scripts, as well as research into the acquisition of literacy. That undulating line of alphabet is not due to the debilities of old age. That is exactly what the handwriting of a child learning his or her alphabet looks like. Nor, unless we are talking about someone suffering from advanced dementia, would an old scribe write her name down three (3) times -- and spelled correctly in Hebrew, too. That is a very childish thing to do. As boys were taught their alphabets starting at age 8, here we have evidence of girls also being taught their alphabets at a tender age. And, then, you may not be aware that 20 years ago the idea that Hebrew and its alphabet were known in ASE was a shocker -- in spite of knowledge that at least one, if not two or three, of AElfred's scholars knew Hebrew and AElfric's comments about not passing by the grave of a Jew. (Um, why make the comment if there were no Jewish graves???)

your Noah's arc

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_claudius_b_iv_f015v

Goodness, no wonder I missed it. I didn't recall it as so colorful.

and his rainbow

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=cotton_ms_claudius_b_iv_f016v

It's Noah's ark and the rainbow has an arc.

c

Rochelle

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