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Hi Oliver, I've just been introduced (by David Tattershall) to an organisation called "Hope or Cope" - where the "hope" is for action to deal with the crisis, and the "cope" is what you have to do if the crisis is not dealt with. They are putting together a Plan B, mainly with the hope of avoiding world economy collapse into a financial black hole. They presented this to the Nordic Council in January [1]. But they have seen our AMEG work on the equally frightening possibility of Arctic sea ice collapse, with high risk of both runaway methane emissions and Greenland Ice Sheet disintegration (with an attendant sea level rise). They might also be interested in your Kyoto2 work and book, Oliver [2]. Whereas AMEG is concerned to cool the Arctic using measures that include SRM geoengineering [3], a complete Plan B must include CDR (carbon dioxide removal). Some agro practice can help by growing/nurturing plants (especially grasses) that sequestor carbon in their root systems, there is a strong case for some combination of biochar and rock crushing, which you, Geoff, Ron and others were discussing last year, see email below. The ultimate goal for CDR has to be to remove CO2 faster than it (or its 'equivalent') is being put into the atmosphere, both: (i) to reduce the net forcing on the climate system (taking it back close to the preindustrial level) thereby keeping the planet under 2 degrees warming; and (ii) to reduce ocean acidification. I support the idea to get the people who take fossil fuel out of the ground to pay a levy towards putting the carbon back in the ground. However "Hope or Cope" have an idea for a special green bank, to support sequestering and other activities towards long-term sustainability. Cheers, John [1] http://www.norden.org/en/nordic-council/organisation-and-structure/committees/the-environment-and-natural-resources-committee/events/nordic-leadership-in-global-efforts-for-the-climate-seminar [2] http://www.kyoto2.org/ [3] http://a-m-e-g.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/message-from-arctic-methane-emergency.html -- On 08/03/2011 17:53, Oliver Tickell wrote: > Olaf has done a fair bit of work on identifying suitable deposits of > olivine bearing rock types for exploitation for CO2 capture. > > If you want to put up a proposal (who to?) I'm sure he will be very > helpful. > > There is also an Olivine Foundation, I think based in the Netherlands. > Not that is very big or has much money, but it might provide a useful > organisational cover. > > Oliver. > > On 07/03/2011 19:36, Geoff Beacon wrote: >> I'm catching up on this stuff. Excuse me if I'm a >> bit behind the game. >> >> I've just (re?)discovered this: >> >> http://royalsociety.org/Geoengineering-the-climate/ >> >> They say: >> >> In summary, all enhanced weathering methods utilise >> naturally occurring minerals and reactions, and produce >> stable natural products, which are already present in large >> quantities in soils and the oceans, and they may therefore >> be regarded as benign in principle. They operate by making >> soils or the ocean somewhat more alkaline, which on >> a global scale reduces CO2 induced acidification of the >> terrestrial and marine environments. However, the >> products are generated in large quantities in a more-or-less >> localised way, and may therefore have substantial impacts >> that would need to be managed... >> >> Elsewhere they point to the costs >> >> A number of geoengineering proposals aimed at artificially >> increasing by large factors the rates of these reactions >> have been suggested. There is no question about the >> basic chemical ability of the enhanced weathering of >> carbonate or silicate minerals to decrease CO2 emissions >> and atmospheric concentrations. Primary barriers to >> deployment are related to scale, cost, and possible >> environmental consequences. >> >> All this has the appearance of eliciting a response of >> "This is well known so don't bother". They don't give >> a cost for this method but the 10 euros a tonne Oliver >> quoted (= 3.67 euros tonne carbon?) is of the same order >> as they postulate: >> >> It is clearly technically possible to remove CO2 from the >> atmosphere using many different technologies, ranging >> from ecosystem manipulation to ‘hard’ engineering. Plans >> to begin removal using some methodologies are in place >> now, and if societies put a realistic value on carbon >> removed (for example, more than $30 per tonne of carbon), >> it would start to happen with existing technologies. >> >> Perhaps a specific proposal mentioning geographical >> locations might be a good thing to propose. >> >> >> Geoff >> >> >> ----- Original message ----- >> From: "Geoff Beacon"<[log in to unmask]> >> To: "Oliver Tickell"<[log in to unmask]>, "RENFORTH >> PHILIP"<[log in to unmask]> >> Cc: "John Nissen"<[log in to unmask]>, "Sam >> Carana"<[log in to unmask]>, "Ron >> Larson"<[log in to unmask]>, "Deepak >> Rughani"<[log in to unmask]>, "Olaf >> Schuiling"<[log in to unmask]> >> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:00:25 +0000 >> Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >> >> What to do next? >> >> 10 Euros a tonne CO2e. Sounds a snip. And Phil's abstract >> seems to make scaling up possible: >> >> "Atmospheric carbon dioxide sequestered as carbonates through >> the accelerated weathering of silicate minerals is proposed >> as a climate change mitigation technology with the potential >> to capture billions of tonnes of carbon per year." >> >> But what are the startup costs and time lags? >> >> Who needs to know - I'm lobbying two of the Climate >> Change Committee, who meet on Friday. Perhaps that's >> too soon to create a well thought statement. >> >> Does this sound too much like a silver bullet? I've >> been pushing for short term forcing agents (black carbon, >> methane) to be taken more seriously (so have better people >> than me http://www.ccq.org.uk/wordpress/?p=195) but others >> worry that this and geoengineering will dilute the urgency >> of cutting CO2 emissions. >> >> >> Is that a problem? >> >> >> Geoff >> >> ----- Original message ----- >> From: "Oliver Tickell"<[log in to unmask]> >> To: "RENFORTH PHILIP"<[log in to unmask]> >> Cc: "John Nissen"<[log in to unmask]>, "Geoff >> Beacon"<[log in to unmask]>, "Sam Carana"<[log in to unmask]>, >> "Ron Larson"<[log in to unmask]>, "Deepak >> Rughani"<[log in to unmask]>, "Olaf >> Schuiling"<[log in to unmask]> >> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 13:30:03 +0000 >> Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >> >> >> Thanks Phil - will read with interest. I have also forwarded to Prof. >> Olaf Schuilling (cc'ed) who will in be interested in what you have found >> out re mine wastes. >> >> Incidentally Olaf has corrected my comment on nickel mines: >> "It is, by the way, the other way round with the nickel and the >> peridotites. The nickel is enriched in the weathering crust on top of >> the peridotite, and that is where they mine it. The advantage is that >> after mining the overburden, the fresh peridotite/dunite is exposed, and >> they can continue to mine that, after the overburden is removed, so no >> new mines, infrastructure is already there, and the mine people continue >> to have work". >> >> Olaf also comments re Kelemen& Matter: >> "I met them both in Oman, and they want to give their proposed set-up a >> try. I am afraid, with the costs of separating CO2 from flue gases, >> transporting it to Oman, and inject it there in solid rocks, their costs >> will be a multiple of what it costs to mine olivine, mill it and spread >> the powder in the wet tropics - [which] costs around 10 Euro/ton of >> CO2". >> >> Oliver. >> >> On 07/03/2011 13:05, RENFORTH PHILIP wrote: >>> Dear All, >>> >>> I would hesitate to rule out any specific technologies, some of >>> which require research and feasibility analysis before such >>> statements can be made. I suspect that extraction and carbonation of >>> silicates at the surface, underground carbonation and carbonation of >>> waste materials can act as complimentary technologies. I will be >>> undertaking research to this effect over the next couple of years, >>> watch this space for more details >>> (http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/institutes/geoengineering/). >>> >>> Oliver, it's good to see you mention carbonating waste material in >>> soils. One of the issues is that we don't really know how much >>> material is available. I've attached a recent paper of mine which >>> explores this in greater detail. >>> >>> John, to answer your original question. The source of CO2 would be >>> from power stations, and the energy hit would be similar to that for >>> conventional CCS technologies. Spreading silicates on soils takes >>> away this need. >>> >>> Hope this helps, >>> >>> Phil >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Oliver Tickell [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>> Sent: 07 March 2011 11:54 >>>> To: John Nissen >>>> Cc: Geoff Beacon; Sam Carana; Ron Larson; Deepak Rughani; RENFORTH >>>> PHILIP >>>> Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>> >>>> Kelemen and Matter have promoted an energy intensive version of the >>>> technology which seems to be to have few merits - to capture power >>>> station CO2 then react it with rock. >>>> >>>> Much better off financially and energetically just grinding the rock, >>>> spreading over soils and mud flats, and letting natural weathering >>>> progress. >>>> >>>> There are quite a number of rock types that will do the job. The >>>> choice >>>> in any case will have to depend on local availability. >>>> >>>> Mine spoil is especially desirable as the damage has already been done >>>> getting it out of the ground. Eg kimberlite from diamond mines. Nickel >>>> mines also often produce olivine-rich overburden. Also there will >>>> typically be transport infrastructure in place reducing haulage costs. >>>> >>>> Oliver. >>>> >>>> On 04/03/2011 17:28, John Nissen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Geoff, >>>>> >>>>> These papers [1] [2] look very interesting and make chemical CDR look >>>>> promising, as one of a mix of technologies (including biochar) to get >>>>> the CO2 level down below 350 ppm. >>>>> >>>>> However, in [1], it seems that CO2 have to be extracted from the air >>>>> first and then compressed, to get accelerated weathering. What energy >>>> is >>>>> involved per tonne? Roughly what cost? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> [1] http://www.pnas.org/content/105/45/17295.full >>>>> >>>>> [2] http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7126/full/445350a.html >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> On 04/03/2011 12:25, Geoff Beacon wrote: >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> This may be worth following up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Geoff >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original message ----- >>>>>> From: "RENFORTH PHILIP"<[log in to unmask]> >>>>>> To: "'Geoff Beacon'"<[log in to unmask]> >>>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:00:25 +0000 >>>>>> Subject: RE: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>>>> >>>>>> The latest paper from Keleman and Matter is attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a similar project going on in the Deccan Traps in India >>>>>> (attached). >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Geoff Beacon [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>>>>> Sent: 04 December 2008 15:52 >>>>>>> To: RENFORTH PHILIP >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phil >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This isn't as hopeful as suggested in the Economist's reports >>>>>>> of the Kelemen and Matter paper. As an academic you have more >>>>>>> access to journals than I do. Does the paper exist, the >>>>>>> Economist said it's in the Proceedings of the National Academy >>>>>>> of Sciences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does it actually exist? It doesn't seem too google. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Geoff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:00:03 +0000, "RENFORTH PHILIP" >>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> said: >>>>>>>> Hi Geoff, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to put some numbers against energy intensive mineral >>>>>>>> capture of carbon dioxide then the link below has a good overview. >>>>>>>> (albeit slightly out of date ~2005). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://arch.rivm.nl/env/int/ipcc/pages_media/SRCCS- >>>> final/SRCCS_Chapter >>>>>>>> 7.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phil >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: David Manning >>>>>>>> Sent: 01 December 2008 17:45 >>>>>>>> To: Geoff Beacon; David Manning; RENFORTH PHILIP >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Geoff, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good to hear from you again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Peridotite is close to my heart as I mapped large areas of this >>>> rock >>>>>>>> in Scotland when I was a student. Its reactions with CO2 are >>>> exactly >>>>>>>> as the article says, and I am sure that what is proposed will >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> Whether it is better than CO2 sequestration in old petroleum >>>>>>>> reservoirs is another matter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From a UK point of view, rocks of this type only occur at >>>>>>>> surface >>>> in >>>>>>>> the Inner Hebrides and some adjacent mainland areas of Scotland. >>>>>>>> Related rocks occur at the Lizard in Cornwall. At depth >>>>>>> they would be >>>>>>>> present offshore at very great depth, maybe 30-40 km in this >>>>>>> part of the world. >>>>>>>> So the energy and carbon cost of setting this all up as a >>>>>>>> sequestration process still worries me. Far better to remember >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> plants take out a fifth of ALL the atmosphere’s CO2 each >>>>>>>> year, >>>>>>>> and try to intercept that cycle before the soils give it >>>>>>> back to the atmosphere. >>>>>>>> Methane bubbling up in the Arctic: we did talk about that here. >>>>>>>> Try >>>>>>>> Tom Wagner or Andy Aplin at Newcastle, School of Civil >>>>>>> Engineering and >>>>>>>> Geosciences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Director >>>>>>>> Institute for Research on Environment and Sustainability Newcastle >>>>>>>> University Newcastle upon Tyne >>>>>>>> NE1 7RU >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Telephone (+44) 0191 246 4808 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 1/12/08 12:59, "Geoff Beacon"<[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David and Phil >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm a little embarrassed to contact you because we have had some >>>>>>>> hiccups with starting UkPolicy.tv and the footage we >>>>>>> troubled you for >>>>>>>> has not yet been used. But it will be! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm forwarding this article I have been sent to ask if you know >>>>>>>> anything about the possibilities of using Peridotite to sequester >>>>>>>> carbon. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have met Hiliary Benn and Ed Miliband recently and asked them if >>>>>>>> they had any scientific briefings on reports of methane >>>>>>> bubbling up in >>>>>>>> the Arctic sea. Neither had. Do you know of anyone who could >>>>>>> give such >>>>>>>> briefings? Here are some of the reports: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/23/eame >>>>>>>> thane123.xml >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/hundreds-of-methane- >>>> plumes-d >>>>>>>> iscovered-941456.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/exclusive- >>>> the- >>>>>>>> methane-time-bomb-938932.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/23/climatechange.scienc >>>>>>>> eofclimatechange1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best wishes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Geoff Beacon >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Geoff Beacon >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original message ----- >>>>>>>> From: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> To: "Geoff Beacon"<[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:32:13 -0000 >>>>>>>> Subject: FW: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another mineral solution? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Martin Harrison [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>>>>>> Sent: 26 November 2008 08:46 >>>>>>>> To: peter spencer >>>>>>>> Subject: Peridotite - FYI a possible absorber of CO2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Geoff Beacon >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -- >>>> Kyoto2 - for an effective climate agreement. >>>> w: www.kyoto2.org >>>> e: [log in to unmask] >>>> p: +44 1865 728118 >> >