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Jamie, I had to keep reiterating to Abramson about his continuous mentioning of creative writing courses, as he seemed to think the Argotist feature was mainly about that. I’ve apologised to him for teasing him about his seeming to be auditioning for an academic job. You might find Bob Grumman’s response to Abramson’s criticism of Grumman’s definition of the term “the Otherstream” less "rude" than my response to him was: http://poeticks.com/2012/07/13/entry-798-grumman-versus-abramson/ Given Abramson’s mainstream (and please let us not have to go into a debate about my use of that word) credentials, it’s hardly surprising he is critical of alternative ideas about poetry. Here is some biographical information about him at The Huffington post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey, your response to Seth Abramson's piece just repeats the same point again and again that he is "obsessed" with creative writing programmes. If he is confusing your use of the "Academy" - or seeing it as too vague a term to be helpful - surely the way forward would be to clarify your use of the word, rather than merely to assert terms change their meanings. And personalizing the disagreement as you do is really the lowest form of argument: “Yes, I do realise, Seth, that your various writings are, perhaps, mainly intended as audition pieces for you to one day gain an esteemed academic position, but they seem little more than that to me, I’m afraid." I confess I've little knowledge of MFAs, and not too much interedst in them, but at least he attempts to supply an informative and factual history of their emergence whereas Jake Berry's Argotist piece seemed to me very vague indeed. The idea of "Academicising" poetry and the growth of creative writing programmes surely are linked, and not so easily separated, as Berry's reference to the Iowa course concedes: poets are trained up within and go on to teach at these courses. I have some sympathy for Abramson's concern that the terms of the Argotist debate are so unclear as to make it all too easy to ignore. Jamie