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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]> > From: Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> >>Wikipedia (source of all things reliable) says that the vexillum started as a papal thing during the Investiture Controversy, > this would be c. 1080s? >>long after the ivories > http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg >>were made. Is this right? > c. 1080 looks a bit more reasonable, to me, than, say, 8th or 9th c. --but i don't know the literature on these guys at all. > i'm having a hard time putting this/these object(s) in early 8th c. Spain (or anywhere else). my apologies to all. i was depending upon the date of "7th c. Spain or c. 700-750" given on this site (bottom) http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/HistoricalIvory5.html whereas i should have gone to the definitive facebook.com site http://www.facebook.com/pages/Museum-Schn%C3%BCtgen/135713656462060 and gotten a more reasonable "around 810." otOh, it appears that Genevra's explicit statement that the figures of Pete/Phil and Paulie/Andy in question came from the "back" of the panels apparently suggests that the "front" of them looks like this http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/cologne-st-cecilia-photos/slides/IMG_0854.htm http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt1.jpg which are clearly from the early 9th c. implying that --the ivories being reused-- the "back" carvings antedate those on the front. still and all, early 8th c. Spain just doesn't look "right" to me, stylewise. gosh, those opposing griffins are nicely done. makes one wonder how a fellow could do such a good job on them and had so much trouble with human figures. incidentally, the motif of griffins flanking a booted vessel is a favorite in the 11th & early 12th c. --with a much longer pedigree, of course. http://www.ariadne.org/cc/towers/towercaps/griffins.jpg Jan van der Meulen has an article on it somewhere (but i seem to have lost the reference). c ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html