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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Genevra, It would make sense that the Vexillum of St Peter came into prominence during the Investiture Controversy, but there were a couple of mosaics put up by Pope Leo III, flanking the triclinium in the Lateran Palace -- there are replacements there now -- which showed Christ handing a vexillum to Constantine on one side, and St Peter handing a vexillum to Charlemagne on the other. Presumably, these reflect some sort of presence of a vexillum of St Peter by the late 8th century. Come to think of it, however, these were the "western" type of vexilla, a pennon with tails, rather than the rectangular "Byzantine" type of vexillum, as on your ivory. Jim On 05/05/2012 8:34 PM, Genevra Kornbluth wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Wikipedia (source of all things reliable) says that the vexillum > started as a papal thing during the Investiture Controversy, long > after the ivories were made. Is this right? And of course the item is > held on the Paul side of the ivories, not the Peter side. > Also, it appears to me that the Paul/Andrew figure is likewise holding > something rectangular, just a bit lower down than Peter/Philip. Of > course, between a distinctly non-naturalistic style and a fair bit of > surface wear, it's really anyone's guess. > > On 5/5/2012 2:06 PM, Dr Jim Bugslag wrote: >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >> culture >> >> On the other hand, Peter is associated with a vexillum, which was >> presented by popes to those fighting on their behalf. >> Jim >> >> On 05/05/2012 12:32 PM, Robert Kraft wrote: >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>> culture >>> >>> When I checked the images, after CC's post, I was interested to find >>> the figure on the left holding a book (a codex, it seems; or a >>> tablet), since some earlier depictions of Philip on this thread show >>> him holding some sort of roll (not clear whether one read >>> horizontally or vertically; is it because Philip interprets Isaiah >>> to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts?). I don't recall Peter being >>> associated with book holding in the artistic conventions, so I >>> wonder if maybe CC is onto something here. >>> >>> Bob Kraft. UPenn emeritus >>> >>> On 5/5/2012 9:54 AM, Genevra Kornbluth wrote: >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>>> culture >>>> >>>> Sorry for the delay in my response to CC-- this is a busy time of >>>> year. >>>> The panels are each 29 cm high (11.4"). The figures are generally >>>> identified as Peter and Paul, but really, it could go either way. >>>> They are not distinguished physiognomically. Neither is balding or >>>> bearded, and a beard was as standard for Andrew as it was for Peter. >>>> The object held by Paul/Andrew is normally identified as a labarum >>>> (not standard iconography for any apostle that I know of!). >>>> >>>> On 5/3/2012 2:19 PM, Christopher Crockett wrote: >>>>> http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/images/HarrachDipt2.jpg >>>>> but surely the two figures here are not Pete & Paulie, but Phil >>>>> and Andy? (where's Pete's beard and, what, did he get a hair >>>>> transplant?)...and what is that attribute the figure on the right >>>>> is holding? >>>> > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html