[log in to unmask]" type="cite">medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureI always find this one tricky, so will probably get it wrong (again), but the immaculate conception of Mary has nothing to do with whatever sexual activity took place between her parents. It is only to do with whether she was untainted by Original Sin (ie Adam and Eve's pride and disobedience), and since there was a consensus that she can't have been so tainted if she was chosen to bear the son of G-d, the issue turned on whether she was absolved from Original Sin in the womb or at birth. Hence Mary was immaculate, either from birth or from conception, and the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception declared that it was from conception.
Like many others, I had assumed that the issue was about parental sex, and was put right on the issue by Prof Kerry Downes (but not before I had repeated in print an erroneous interpretation of Giotto's 'The Meeting of Joachim and Anna at the Golden Gate'). I often see this sort of interpretation of this particular scene in art (it's subject to speculation becasue it shows J and A kissing). Derbes and Sandona say in their book on Giotto's frescoes that it was a common belief in the middle ages that Mary was herself the product of asexual reproduction. Not sure what the evidence for this common medieval belief is, but it seems to be a common modern one.
Laura********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
On 22 April 2012 14:53, Gyorgy Gereby <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
Dear Hiram:********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
1. The immaculate conception is a relatively late theologeme about Mary beging conceived to Anne and Joachim (her parents, according to the Protevangelium of James) without the original sin ("without concupiscence") - that is, not Mary conceiving, but her being conceived :). This doctrine was hotly debated roughly from the early 13th. c. onwards, primarily defended by the Franciscans. There is no pararallel doctrine in the Patristic period, or in the East (e.g. it presupposes the doctrine on the original sin which emerged owing to the good services of St. Augustine in the early 5th c.). The IC was dogmatized in 1854 in the RC Church.
2. The virgin birth is more than what Christine said. The Theotokos (Mary) was believed to have been a virgin before birth (ante partum), that is, having conceived without losing her virginity - during birth (in partu), that is, delivering while remaining a virgin - after birth (post partum), that is, remained a virgin for the rest of her life. The virgin birth was already present in the 2nd c. (in the above Protev.), although some theologians (like Tertullian) denied the in partu / post partum aspect (in my view in order to stress the full humanity of Christ - the original mariological doctrines were always Christological in their implications).
Therefore the two doctrines are very different in their content, even if they pertain to the same person. In patristic theology the conception of Mary to Anne was natural, while the conception of Christ to Mary was considered as supernatural. In the latter case, therefore ordinary medical views don't hold.
I hope it helps.
Best,
George
On 22 April 2012 14:36, Karl Brunner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureMost medieval people follow Lk 1, 37.
yours
Karl
Am 22.04.2012 um 14:12 schrieb Hiram Kümper:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Sure. But doesn't that both touch issues of conception? Anyone come across this?
>
> Best
> Hiram
>
> Dr. Hiram Kümper
> Universität Bielefeld
> Geschichte des Mittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit
> Universitätsstraße 25
> S 4-211
> D-33615 Bielefeld
> (+049) 0521/106-3245
> http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/hkuemper
>
>
>
> Am 22.04.2012 13:57, schrieb Christine Gray:
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> The Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary herself was conceived
>> without original sin.
>>
>> The virgin birth is the belief that Mary was a virgin, even though pregnant.
>>
>> Christine, a luirker
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From: *"Hiram Kümper" <[log in to unmask]>
>> *To: *[log in to unmask]
>> *Sent: *Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:27:25 AM
>> *Subject: *[M-R] medical theory and religious belief
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> Dear everyone,
>>
>> please allow me to ask for your help in a question that has been hauting
>> me now for several weeks: from at least the twelfth century onwards
>> natural philosophers and later medicins discuss the idea of a female
>> contribution to conception, be it in the form of sperm or some other
>> material. Many of these even conflicting ideas have in common that they
>> see the woman’s active consent (mostly in terms of “lust”) as obligatory
>> for conception.
>> Now, how does this go along with the idea of Mary’s immaculate
>> conception and the debate over her perpetual virginity? This question
>> certainly goes beyond the integrity of the hymen when theories of
>> conceptions are concerned, especially when it comes to the immaculate
>> conception.
>> I wonder whether there are discussions between medieval theologians
>> where arguments and questions of theology and medical theory meet in
>> this respect? I strongly suspect there must be. Still surprisingly, I
>> hardly found any. But that might certainly be my fault. John Bugge, for
>> instance, who devotes an appendix to his fine study on “Virginitas”
>> (1975) to Mary’s immaculate conception, does not mention anything
>> either. Does, by any chance, anyone of you know the one or other example
>> or could point me at some eminent study that I might have overlooked?
>>
>> Thanks so much for any hint!
>>
>> Yours
>> Hiram
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Hiram Kümper
>> Universität Bielefeld
>> Geschichte des Mittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit
>> Universitätsstraße 25
>> S 4-211
>> D-33615 Bielefeld
>> (+049) 0521/106-3245
>> http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/hkuemper
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> To send a message to the list, address it to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
>> to: [log in to unmask]
>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> For further information, visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to:
>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a
>> message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the
>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to
>> contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further
>> information, visit our web site:
>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
--
György Geréby CSc (PhD)
associate professor
Mediaeval Studies Department
Central European University
Budapest V
Nador u 9
H-1051 Hungary
Phone/fax: + 36.1.3412634
Mobile: +36.30.9969874
Skype: ggereby4
--
György Geréby CSc (PhD)
associate professor
head, Mediaeval Studies Department
Central European University
Budapest V
Nador u 9
H-1051 Hungary
Phone/fax: + 36.1.3412634
Mobile: +36.30.9969874
Skype: ggereby4
--
Dr. Laura JacobusSenior Lecturer in History of ArtBirkbeck College, University of London
For details of my book on Giotto and the Arena Chapel see http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9781905375127-1