medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
It strikes me that if a bunch of quite highly educated academics can get
such ideas wrong so often these days, then misunderstandings must have
been far more rife during the Middle Ages when most people didn't have
access to books, Wikipedia, etc. Whatever, as Laura says, "common
medieval belief" might have been, perhaps we should be open to some
pretty non-orthodox medieval opinions being part of the mix. Although
relating to another issue completely, I can't help thinking of Carlo
Ginzberg's The Cheese and the Worms, in which an illiterate miller put
forward some pretty wacky ideas about creation.
Cheers,
Jim
On 23/04/2012 8:29 AM, Laura Jacobus wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I always find this one tricky, so will probably get it wrong (again),
> but the immaculate conception of Mary has nothing to do with whatever
> sexual activity took place between her parents. It is only to do with
> whether she was untainted by Original Sin (ie Adam and Eve's pride and
> disobedience), and since there was a consensus that she can't have
> been so tainted if she was chosen to bear the son of G-d, the issue
> turned on whether she was absolved from Original Sin in the womb or at
> birth. Hence Mary was immaculate, either from birth or from
> conception, and the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception declared
> that it was from conception.
>
> Like many others, I had assumed that the issue was about parental sex,
> and was put right on the issue by Prof Kerry Downes (but not before I
> had repeated in print an erroneous interpretation of Giotto's 'The
> Meeting of Joachim and Anna at the Golden Gate'). I often see this
> sort of interpretation of this particular scene in art (it's subject
> to speculation becasue it shows J and A kissing). Derbes and Sandona
> say in their book on Giotto's frescoes that it was a common belief in
> the middle ages that Mary was herself the product of asexual
> reproduction. Not sure what the evidence for this common medieval
> belief is, but it seems to be a common modern one.
>
> Laura
>
> On 22 April 2012 14:53, Gyorgy Gereby <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
>
> Dear Hiram:
>
> 1. The immaculate conception is a relatively late theologeme about
> Mary beging conceived to Anne and Joachim (her parents, according
> to the Protevangelium of James) without the original sin ("without
> concupiscence") - that is, not Mary conceiving, but her being
> conceived :). This doctrine was hotly debated roughly from the
> early 13th. c. onwards, primarily defended by the Franciscans.
> There is no pararallel doctrine in the Patristic period, or in the
> East (e.g. it presupposes the doctrine on the original sin which
> emerged owing to the good services of St. Augustine in the early
> 5th c.). The IC was dogmatized in 1854 in the RC Church.
>
> 2. The virgin birth is more than what Christine said. The
> Theotokos (Mary) was believed to have been a virgin before birth
> (ante partum), that is, having conceived without losing her
> virginity - during birth (in partu), that is, delivering while
> remaining a virgin - after birth (post partum), that is, remained
> a virgin for the rest of her life. The virgin birth was already
> present in the 2nd c. (in the above Protev.), although some
> theologians (like Tertullian) denied the in partu / post partum
> aspect (in my view in order to stress the full humanity of Christ
> - the original mariological doctrines were always Christological
> in their implications).
>
> Therefore the two doctrines are very different in their content,
> even if they pertain to the same person. In patristic theology the
> conception of Mary to Anne was natural, while the conception of
> Christ to Mary was considered as supernatural. In the latter case,
> therefore ordinary medical views don't hold.
>
> I hope it helps.
>
> Best,
>
> George
>
>
>
> On 22 April 2012 14:36, Karl Brunner <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
> and culture
>
> Most medieval people follow Lk 1, 37.
>
> yours
> Karl
>
>
> Am 22.04.2012 um 14:12 schrieb Hiram Kümper:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
> >
> > Sure. But doesn't that both touch issues of conception?
> Anyone come across this?
> >
> > Best
> > Hiram
> >
> > Dr. Hiram Kümper
> > Universität Bielefeld
> > Geschichte des Mittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit
> > Universitätsstraße 25
> > S 4-211
> > D-33615 Bielefeld
> > (+049) 0521/106-3245
> > http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/hkuemper
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 22.04.2012 13:57, schrieb Christine Gray:
> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
> >>
> >> The Immaculate Conception is the belief that Mary herself
> was conceived
> >> without original sin.
> >>
> >> The virgin birth is the belief that Mary was a virgin, even
> though pregnant.
> >>
> >> Christine, a luirker
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> *From: *"Hiram Kümper" <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> >> *To: *[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >> *Sent: *Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:27:25 AM
> >> *Subject: *[M-R] medical theory and religious belief
> >>
> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
> >>
> >> Dear everyone,
> >>
> >> please allow me to ask for your help in a question that has
> been hauting
> >> me now for several weeks: from at least the twelfth century
> onwards
> >> natural philosophers and later medicins discuss the idea of
> a female
> >> contribution to conception, be it in the form of sperm or
> some other
> >> material. Many of these even conflicting ideas have in
> common that they
> >> see the woman’s active consent (mostly in terms of “lust”)
> as obligatory
> >> for conception.
> >> Now, how does this go along with the idea of Mary’s immaculate
> >> conception and the debate over her perpetual virginity?
> This question
> >> certainly goes beyond the integrity of the hymen when
> theories of
> >> conceptions are concerned, especially when it comes to the
> immaculate
> >> conception.
> >> I wonder whether there are discussions between medieval
> theologians
> >> where arguments and questions of theology and medical
> theory meet in
> >> this respect? I strongly suspect there must be. Still
> surprisingly, I
> >> hardly found any. But that might certainly be my fault.
> John Bugge, for
> >> instance, who devotes an appendix to his fine study on
> “Virginitas”
> >> (1975) to Mary’s immaculate conception, does not mention
> anything
> >> either. Does, by any chance, anyone of you know the one or
> other example
> >> or could point me at some eminent study that I might have
> overlooked?
> >>
> >> Thanks so much for any hint!
> >>
> >> Yours
> >> Hiram
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dr. Hiram Kümper
> >> Universität Bielefeld
> >> Geschichte des Mittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit
> >> Universitätsstraße 25
> >> S 4-211
> >> D-33615 Bielefeld
> >> (+049) 0521/106-3245
> >> http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/hkuemper
> >>
> >>
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> --
>
> György Geréby CSc (PhD)
> associate professor
> Mediaeval Studies Department
> Central European University
>
> Budapest V
> Nador u 9
> H-1051 Hungary
>
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> --
>
> György Geréby CSc (PhD)
> associate professor
> head, Mediaeval Studies Department
> Central European University
>
> Budapest V
> Nador u 9
> H-1051 Hungary
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> --
> Dr. Laura Jacobus
> Senior Lecturer in History of Art
> Birkbeck College, University of London
>
> For details of my book on Giotto and the Arena Chapel see
> http://www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9781905375127-1
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