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April 22
Dear N. W. Azal,
I don't want to get involved in another long exchange that will simply anger persons on the list.
I was saying what is obvious: not that one must be a scholar but that to be a scholar, one must have a PhD. What you call IVORY TOWER ELITISM, I call professionalism. And by the way, the more prestigious the university that grants one a PhD, the more scholarly one is assumed to be.
Armstrong has not needed a doctorate to sell books, but her books are not scholarly, and no academic would assign anything she has written to even a first-year course on myth, on religion, on the Bible, or on Islam. Whether she recognizes that her stuff is sub-academic, I don't know. Maybe she does, and does not care. Certainly her many admiring readers do not know or care about her missing credentials. There are scores of writers on myth, not least Joseph Campbell, who have hardly suffered because they are nonacademics.
I don't catch the non sequitur (the correct spelling) in my statement. I may be wrong, but I am not thereby illogical.
Robert
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of N.W. Azal [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 10:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] academic career
Writers without academic credentials are dismissed as popularizers or worse. Not to have a PhD is akin to wanting to become a pilot without a license.
And that is the most poignant expression of Ivory Tower elitism, if there ever was, with an non sequitor of an example for the ages to boot!
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Segal, Professor Robert A. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
April 22
Dear Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju,
If I may offer two cents (or pence): if you wish to enter the academic world, you need a PhD. Writers without academic credentials are dismissed as popularizers or worse. Not to have a PhD is akin to wanting to become a pilot without a license.
Karen Armstrong is the proverbial exception that proves the rule. Undeniably, she makes a healthy living from her books. But she is a joke. She has never done any research in any of the areas in which she has published--with, I suppose, the exception of her autobiography, which I wouldn't read even if I were immortal. She has no conception of scholarship. She thinks that she can write on the Bible without knowledge of Hebrew or Greek. She has written, I believe, on Islam--without, I bet, even being to able to identify the Arabic alphabet. She lists fewer sources in her bibliographies than first-year students at accredited universities would be expected to list in their essays.
My own field is theories of myth, and I reviewed her SHORT HISTORY OF MYTH for the Jungian journal, itself far from academic, SPRING. I ended my review by calling her book the worst book on myth that I have ever read. She knows nothing about the topic.
I know nothing about you and would not have uttered a peep had you know cited Armstrong as an example of what you might be seeking. Obviously, you are free to ignore all that I have said.
There are academics who write for nonacademic audiences. My own MYTH appears in Oxford's VERY SHORT INTRODUCTION series, which operates out of the trade division and which is marketed to lay persons. But the authors of its own 200 or so volumes are experts in their fields.
With best wishes,
Robert (Segal)
Sixth Century Chair in Religious Studies
University of Aberdeen
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a publisher for translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
Thanks, Peter.
I'm developing a strategy to explore the possibility of earning a living from scholarly writing which uses the full academic framework, one way of describing the cultural identity that marks an academic work.
A writer who seems to have done this is Karen Armstrong but her career benefits from a peculiar confluence of factors- the sensationalism of her move from cloister to public life in her search for religious meaning, as described in her autobiographical Through the Narrow Gate and The Spiral Stair, her autobiographies giving graphic form to her religious and philosophical struggles in the context of her life's vicissitudes, bringing the metaphysical issues she engages with closer to the reader, her presence on TV, a list of books that study religious history in terms of her conception of religious meaning, a teaching appointment and newspaper writing.
How helpful would it be to adapt a related approach- making the subject of one's writing accessible to the reader in terms of its touching an intimate nerve in the depths of efforts at understanding that shape human life?
How helpful would it be to adapt online media for developing and stimulating a market for scholarly writing?
I have been struck by the interest shown by readers in various general interest online groups and on Facebook in some of my more ambitious essays. I have even got input from these sources on one or two of those essays that I have integrated into the draft of the essay. Someone once asked whether there was a book where a particular essay I posted on Facebook can be found.
In enticing a reader to part with their money, various factors are at play. Scholarly books are among the best on any subject. Publication by a scholarly focused publishing house is often an imprimatur of high quality, at times the highest quality. Some of the best books on the Hindu and Buddhist phenomenon of Tantra , some of these books demonstrating par excellence the erotic dimension of Tantra that Western enthusiasts seem to have found so fascinating, are in scholarly works, perhaps more so than in trade publications. The only translation known to me of Abhinavagupta's famous erotic mysticism in Chapter 29 of his Tantraloka is the book<http://www.scribd.com/doc/54134989/John-R-Dupuche-Abhinavagupta-The-Kula-Ritual> that came out of John Dupuche's PhD.
Perhaps one could offer a smorgasbord of works, meticulous, rich in ideas, imaginative appeal and communicative strategies, from the dialogue to the essay, rigorously argued and yet possibly anchored in what can be seen as universally intimate to the self. Advertise widely using online and possibly offline outlets. Cultivate a presence on various social networks that whets people appetites for one's work. Give workshops and introduce and or sell one's books at such gatherings, among other strategies.
I had once thought I would use self publishing but it does not motivate me any more, because it seems too narrowly focused for me. I prefer the professionalism and strong book list of an academic publisher and the scope of a trade publisher.
thanks
oluwatoyin vincent adepoju
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Forshaw, Peter <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] on behalf of OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>]
Academic books are more expensive because of the low print run. Brill, for example, mostly intend to sell their books to academic libraries, not to individuals.
I've never heard of scholars making all that much money from the royalties they get from their academic books. The percentages they get offered are low in the first place, most publishing houses are not prepared to invest much in advertising, and most bookshops reluctant to stock too many copies because of the specialist nature of the works. Some scholars, like Simon Shama must do well from their publications, but these are often cross-over books, rather than academic works, strictly speaking.
I don't think being employed by an institution is always a concern when getting a book contract, because many scholarly publications are often by people still on post-doctoral fellowships rather than with tenure, but professorial status doubtless sways the bigger publishing houses.
I hope that's some help.
Peter
Dr Peter J Forshaw
Assistant Professor for History of Western Esotericism in the Early Modern Period
<http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/p.j.forshaw/>Center for History of Hermetic Philosophy and Related Currents
University of Amsterdam
Oude Turfmarkt 141-147
1012 GC Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Editor-in-Chief Aries: Journal for the Study of Western Esotericism<http://www.brill.nl/aries/>
Webmaster ESSWE: European Society for the Study of Western Esotericism<http://www.esswe.org/>
Webmaster SHAC: Society of the History of Alchemy and Chemistry<http://www.ambix.org/>
Website Center for History of Hermetic Philosophy and Related Currents<http://www.amsterdamhermetica.nl/>
________________________________
Sent: 22 April 2012 16:02To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a publisher for translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
im pleased to observe that im not the only one sensitive to book prices.
academic books are generally priced higher than trade books. i wonder why.
in relation to that, i wonder what the chances are of earning a living, and a good one, from writing academic books, without being employed by an institution.
thanks
toyin
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 2:30 PM, N.W. Azal <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
Yes.
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 2:52 PM, OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
I would like to understand your qualms about Brill.
Is it the pricing?
toyin
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM, N.W. Azal <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
For a text such as al-Buni's the publishing arm of the Isma'ili Institute in London may be an option for me. I have some old contacts there but the problem with the Isma'ili Institute is that it takes them forever to put anything out. You mentioned the Rasa'il of the Ikhwan al-Safa': the Institute was supposed to have put out a complete annotated translation of this text by 2008. Four years have passed, and nary a word on when this complete annotated translation is supposed to come out.
I tried SUNY some years back and they told me a complete translation of al-Buni was too ambitious for them at the time. Fons Vitae (Islamic Texts Society) may be an option. I have a few old contacts there as well.
I have some moral qualms with handing my work over to Brill, for pretty much the reasons everyone knows why.
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 1:30 PM, OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
Publishers who publish related texts, including complex translations, are of course good sources to try.
Oxford University Press' 2012 religion catalogue has a number of works from the Islamic esoteric school The Brethren of Purity and they have publish consistently on Islam.
Another publisher who publishes in Islamic mysticism and philosophy is the State University of New York Press. They brought out William Chittick's two large volumes on Ibn Arabi and they are publishing a series of works in Western, Asian and possibly Islamic esotericism.
Stanford University Press UP is collaborating with the Pritzker foundation to bring out Daniel Matt's 12 volume translation<http://www.sup.org/zohar/> of the monumental Zohar. 5 volumes have come out in the last few years.
University of Chicago Press is also publishing another massive work, the Mahabharata<http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo3627675.html>.
Princeton University Press, publishing excellent books in a wide range of fields, seem to have a section for works from different cultures dealing with an inspirational focus, to which your translation might be described as belonging to.
thanks
toyin
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Noah Gardiner <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
Actually, Brill's been putting out somewhat cheaper paperbacks recently. Granted, "somewhat cheaper" means in the $70-80 range, but it shows that they're at least partially aware of the pricing issue.
- Noah
On 4/21/2012 11:24 PM, Dr Dave Evans wrote:
absolutely, i am not alone in referrng to Brill's output as being among the loveliest and most interesting books that no mortal can ever afford to read. If you have a university library with funds (discuss....) or can snag a review copy then that's about your only chance to see their output. The notion of a Brill trade paperback may well be anathema to them
Dave E
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Robert Parsons <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:From: Christopher I. Lehrich <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
I've never thought of Brill in those terms but you may very well be right. Clearly, for the most part, they've priced a good many of their books so high that institutions and libraries seem to be their primary market. If they produced affordable trade editions they may actually be able to turn a profit.
________________________________
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Sat, April 21, 2012 1:53:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a publisher for translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
If it's a sufficiently scholarly translation, you might try Brill. They publish a lot of important texts within Islamic history, and they're largely unconcerned with making money.
Chris Lehrich
On 4/20/2012 11:36 AM, N.W. Azal wrote:
The current Beirut printed edition of al-Buni and its reprints runs over 616 pages (not including index and table of contents/fihrist). The 2004 Turkish annotated translation and edition was divided into two massive volumes of over 2000/3000+ pages per volume. Serializing al-Buni is totally unfeasible, if one were to do it properly, that is. There are four books here with over 50+ chapters and numerous sub-divisions (as of the printed edition, although no consensus exists on the chapter divisions or its sub-divisions. All of these were added later). Plus there are countless diagrams, graphs and pictures. A project such as this would have to to be done much like (and even better than) how Llewelyn did Agrippa's De occulta philosophia -- and al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses is twice, three times Agrippa's size. The daunting scope of this project is what, I suspect, has scared off a few publishers I have been speaking to over the years.
N.W. Azal
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Karen Gregory <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
Hello all:
I passed the email to a friend at CUP and their response was:
"I've been finding that even books on Islamic science are rather specialized. The British have done more in your friend's area. Kegan Paul (whom we used to distribute) and Brill would be worth trying. Alternatively, the translation could be serialized in the journal he mentions. Or even excerpts, which might generate more interest among presses.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Karen
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Daniel Harms <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:(607) 753-4042<tel:%28607%29%20753-4042>
I'll add that a request for the Shams al-Maarif in English is one of the top trending and most commented posts on my blog, so there is substantial interest.
Sincerely,
Dan Harms
Bibliographer and Instructional Services Librarian
SUNY Cortland Memorial Library
P. O. Box 2000
Cortland, NY 13045
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] On Behalf Of Dr Dave Evans
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a publisher for translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
one of the many reasons i love this list : )
Dave E
On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:08 PM, mandrake <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
On 20/04/2012 13:57, Lil Osborn wrote:
many thanks for plug
- yes would certainly be interested personally and professionally
mogg
contacted Nima off linst
Hi Nima, Have you tried Mandrake I know Mogg is on the list.
Much love
Lil
Sent from my iPhone so please excuse the spelling.
On 20 Apr 2012, at 11:59, "N.W. Azal" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
My attempt to find a reputable publisher for my translation of al-Buni's opus magnum, the Shams al-Ma'arif al-Kubra (The Great Sun of Gnoses), seems to be going nowhere. Generally speaking, even though there is now a journal dealing with occultism in the Islamic world, most Anglophone publishers seem to be uninterested in publishing a translation of the most comprehensive Islamic hermetic text, claiming it to be, in the words of one outfit, "too arcane an area to prove a lucrative investment"; this, while there seems to be huge demand from a market of non-Arabic readers for a translation of this specific work.
I am open to suggestions as to who to talk to if anyone has any ideas or contacts.
N.W. Azal
--
Karen Gregory
PhD candidate
Department of Sociology
The Graduate Center
City University of New York
--
Christopher I. Lehrich
Assistant Professor of Religion
Boston University
--
Noah Gardiner
Doctoral candidate, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.