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Thanks for this. I am very grateful to Andrew for taking the time to explain his reference to 'paper bags'. I still think the image is unhelpful, but this response is quite the opposite - and i would agree with much that Andrew says. However, I would argue that it is important to separate out Cobbing, Nuttall and Mottram - as representing different practices and poetics. Mottram's view of 'primitivism' is, as you would expect, complex and nuanced: first, as he argues in his Introduction to one of the three big conferences he co-organised at the start of the 1970s, he would insist that the 'primitive' is complex; second, as his correspondence with Duncan makes clear (ed by Amy Evans and Shamoon Zamir), he was always opposed to any idea of assigning value to 'the tribe'. Secondly, contra Andrew, the period 1970-85 in London was an interesting period in London. Quite apart from Allen Fisher's work in this period, there is the list of works that he provides for this period ... which just scratches the surface. There is a work of sifting to be done in relation to the London School. Thirdly, it is difficult to separate out the factions: when Denise Riley and Andrew himself move to London and take part in 'London' events do they become London School? Were Paul Buck and Geraldine Monk part of the 'London School' - though they didn't live in London? Fourthly, I agree entirely with the need for reflexive memory, but I don't think that was absent in the 1970s London School: my memory is that a number of us were trying to acquire this - this was certainly what Ken Edwards, Peter Barry and myself were involved in through the 1970s - and Gavin Selerie and Robert Sheppard and others .... Mottram's efforts at disseminating information about British and American practices (especially his 'Poetry Information' series and the big conferences mentioned above) was an important context, but also Allen Fisher's work through the 1970s, Paul Brown's engagement with surrealism ... Finally, I too would want to separate out this strand from 'messy' Underground writing - if i am reading Andrew right here. I, too, have memories of sitting through interminable readings of sloippy work. (The Roundhouse overnight poetry reading of 1969 - I think - remains in my memory. I would be happy for this to be sent on to Andrew, if he isn't on the list. Robert -----Original Message----- From: British & Irish poets [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Lace Sent: 13 March 2012 16:56 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Writers Forum Workshop Thanks, Michael, for drawing attention to Duncan’s blog. There’s lots of other good things on it, too, like this on the “London School”. http://angelexhaust.blogspot.com/2011/08/london-school-yada-yada-yada.html Duncan makes some good points, but like a lot of his stuff it’s patchy and incohesive in presentation. He really needs a good editor, I think.