 |
 |
Hi Ravi - I think this is a relevant debate but I don't have anything more to add to it right now. Nothing in your message below persuades me to change my personal definition of what a science communicator is (as defined by this list and my understanding of the field). You say that everyone has the potential to be communicator as if that contradicts what I said - it doesn't. I'm talking in the context of what this list is about - science and 'the public'. Your discussing communication within academia / a field / a profession. I'm out of this for now. Best, Wynn From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jon Turney Sent: 27 February 2012 23:06 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy Hi Ravi, point taken - I was joking, honest... On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Ravi Kapur <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Hi Jon, I don't normally weigh into these kind of things, and tend to watch these spontaneous dialogues unfold from afar, with fascination and amusement. But on this occasion, I feel a need to chip in to to say what a shame I think it would be to close down this thread at this point. It could well be that the exchange has runs its course, and no one has anything to add, but I think it would be wrong to constrain it. I do not know Rhys or Wynn (apologies if I should), but Rhys has made some very pertinent points in his last post which I think get to the heart of what we should all be thinking about as science communicators. These are important points in their own right, which have nothing to do with his original 'error' in posting the job ad, for which he has already apologised. Professionalising science communication is important, but is not an end in itself. We (science communicators and society) will be a a lot worse off if we start to preclude and dismiss all other forms of science communication, be it from teachers, parents or practicing academics. I agree with Rhys that every scientist and engineer is a potential communicator (whether good or bad) - it's in the nature of the job to articulate an idea with clarity, to prove, to demonstrate (albeit normally with specialist language to specialist audiences) - and most have the potential to be good (public) communicators given the right nudging, training and encouragement. I gave a talk to this effect to the Young Physicists conference a few years ago, and most of the young scientists in the room certainly seemed to recognise themselves in these terms. Continuing to perpetuate the view that most scientists are simply not communicators unless they are professional 'science communicators' serves no purpose other than to a) create a self-fulfilling negative presumption which young scientists then carry through their careers, and thus b) to create jobs for 'professional' science communicators. These are not in themselves worthwhile societal goals, and are counter-productive to what the point of science communication is in the first place. I agree with Jenny's suggestion for civility on the list, and avoiding on-list public rebukes. But restricting an important discussion on this sort of topic does not seem necessary to me. Regards, Ravi. Ravi Kapur Managing Director Imperative Space and GovEd Communications e: [log in to unmask] w: www.imperativespace.com w: www.goved.co.uk From: Jon Turney <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: "psci-com: on public engagement with science" <[log in to unmask]> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:53:18 +0000 To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy This correspondence is now closed (Ed.) On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Phillips, Rhys <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Hi Wynn, > Everyone who sings is not a singer. I disagree. They may not be a professional singer. Or even a good singer. But they are undeniably a singer at some level. I, like most of us I suspect, eat food - just because I may not eat "good" food or because I don't eat as my profession, does not mean I am not an 'eater'. > A 'science communicator' (as defined by this list and pretty much everyone I know in the field) is someone who communicates science to the public / lay audiences. As a job title / description, I agree that this is generally the accepted meaning. But for me, as someone who works as a research engineer and spends a lot of voluntary time communicating science to public and school audiences, I find the task of communicating science to ANY audience enjoyable and interesting - I get pleasure and enjoyment out of explaining science to very young children right up to my peers. I suspect that for many on the list, they enjoy the task of communicating science full stop, no matter who the audience is. So it would seem reasonable that some people who are on a list of those interested in science communication (whichever meaning you use) may also be interested in a specific form of science communication, i.e. lecturing. I admit that the title of the list does specify 'public engagement' and in this description, my post did not fit. But as I said, it is not the only role that has been advertised here which is not public engagement. > Otherwise they would have remained in academia and pursued a research/lecture career which requires no science communication training. Well that's simply not true - there are several reasons why someone might leave an academic career but still only want to communicate their thoughts to peers and former colleagues. It is interesting though because on another similar list, there is a discussion about favourite science communicators - and many have suggested parents and teachers in response to this. Neither of those would fit with the definition of communicating to a public audience. Essentially, communicating is an art form and like many art forms, who fits the description of doing it is subjective. Personally, I would not call many of the bands in the charts today 'musicians' but they are clearly making music and so undeniably, they are musicians, no matter what my opinion is of their music. -- Rhys Phillips Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH x4704 -----Original Message----- From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wynn Abbott Sent: 27 February 2012 19:59 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy Hi Rhys - Everyone who sings is not a singer. A 'science communicator' (as defined by this list and pretty much everyone I know in the field) is someone who communicates science to the public / lay audiences. It is not someone who solely communicates with their students or peers. Otherwise they would have remained in academia and pursued a research/lecture career which requires no science communication training. You're clearly fixed on your views here so probably best to end the debate here... Best, Wynn -----Original Message----- From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys Sent: 27 February 2012 19:42 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy Hmmm. "This whole 'I'm communicating science therefore I'm a science communicator' argument doesn't really holds up if you're only ever communicating with your students and your peer group." I'm afraid I disagree with this part of your email - the words are right there. It's a bit like saying someone who writes songs cannot be described as a song writer, just because they only write books for a particular audience. "There's nothing in this lecturer vacancy description which obliges the post holder to do anything whatsoever with the public. This list is for those who engage the public - the title of this list is 'psci-com: on public engagement with science'?" That bit I accept - as I said before, it was my own misjudgement to submit it to this list. But I still maintain that it is a science communication role, just one not suited for this distribution list. I have to say that given some roles previously mentioned here are for engaging with specific groups of people (e.g. schools within a classroom setting which to me does not count as members of the public), that my impression was that "public engagement" is a) quite a subjective term and b) not one strictly upheld on the list, hence why I thought the post was suitable. Once again, sorry!! -- Rhys Phillips Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH x4704 -----Original Message----- From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of London Science Festival Sent: 27 February 2012 19:29 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy This whole 'I'm communicating science therefore I'm a science communicator' argument doesn't really holds up if you're only ever communicating with your students and your peer group. There's nothing in this lecturer vacancy description which obliges the post holder to do anything whatsoever with the public. This list is for those who engage the public - the title of this list is 'psci-com: on public engagement with science'? Best, Wynn -----Original Message----- From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys Sent: 27 February 2012 19:22 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy Hi Francis, The ability to communicate may well come last on the criteria. However if someone is interested in communicating science and lecturing is a form of communication, then surely that same person may well be interested in lecturing on a science subject? Rhys -- Rhys Phillips Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH x4704 -----Original Message----- From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Francis Sedgemore Sent: 27 February 2012 18:51 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy As MK says, the ability to communicate normally comes last on the list of criteria used to assess candidates for most university teaching positions. What matters is research experience and potential, and for that reason lectureships should not be advertised here. Send them instead to jobs.ac.uk. Teaching fellowships and the like are another matter. Some of us professional science communicators are recovering academics, but all it takes is one or two years out of the loop, and one's university research and teaching career is toast. Francis -- Dr Francis Sedgemore journalist and science writer www.sedgemore.com > -----Original Message----- > From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:PSCI- > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phillips, Rhys > Sent: 27 February 2012 18:08 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Job Vacancy > > Hi Wynn, > > I agree that those roles are a vital part of science communication. I was using > those examples to make my point (perhaps not very well!) that just because > your job doesn't involve actively presenting at a science museum or giving > talks to schools for example, that doesn't mean it isn't science > communication. Relevant press jobs are of course a form of science > communication. > > But to me, so is lecturing on science topics - lecturing by definition is a form of > communication. Therefore I don't see how it does not count as Science > Communication. I don't think the institutional strategy / mission statement is > even needed - to me it is fairly simple. If the position was purely a research > position then that would perhaps be different. > > Rhys > > -- > Rhys Phillips > Lightning, Electrostatics & EMH > x4704 ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** -- Jon Turney Science writer, editor, lecturer. Author: The Rough Guide to the Future (2010) - shortlisted for Winton Royal Society Science Book Prize 2011 blog(s) at http://unreliablefutures.wordpress.com/ and http://bristoljazzlog.wordpress.com/ www.jonturney.co.uk twitter: jonWturney ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** -- Jon Turney Science writer, editor, lecturer. Author: The Rough Guide to the Future (2010) - shortlisted for Winton Royal Society Science Book Prize 2011 blog(s) at http://unreliablefutures.wordpress.com/ and http://bristoljazzlog.wordpress.com/ www.jonturney.co.uk twitter: jonWturney ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] **********************************************************************