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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Hello all,
I have the prayers (or at least some of them). What I'm interested in
tracking down at the moment is the rhetorical/theological arguments for
their efficacy.  The statutes prescribing these are often prefaced with
some kind of statement like the one I just found from the Council of
Salzburg of 1281, which begins by recalling Moses who "destroyed the
enemies of his people not as a servant in battled, but rather by the
praying of prayers."  This is a recurrent theme, and I'd like to flesh out
the the medieval (12-13c, ideally) thinking on this.

cecilia
p.s., the prayers tend to be old Pro tempore belli and Contra Paganos
texts; though sometimes we get a pro pace prayer. Someone suggested Alison
McHardy's work which does trace some of this, but in a later period.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:21 AM, Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> blissfully unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the situation, it seems
> clear to me that the middlevil equivalent of the "Gott Mit Uns" belt
> buckles
> of the First Collective Psychotic Episode were the "chemisettes" --small
> cloth
> replicas of the relic of the _camesia_ of the Virgin-- which were obtained
> by
> noble pilgrims to Chartres on their way to Do Battle in the name of Right.
>
> Jim is the Resident Expert on this subject and can correct me when i am
> wrong
> and say that the obtainance and acceptance of these Ju-Ju invested
> artifacts
> must have been accompanied by:
>
> 1) some sort of [liturgical?] ceremony
>
> which must have included
>
> b) prayers
>
> but apparently no trace of either has survived in the written record.
>
> or, has it?
>
> c
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 05:45:49 PM EST
> From: Cecilia Gaposchkin <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] bibliography on the efficacy of prayer
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > Dear all,
> > I write to thank you for all your fantastic suggestions at this.  Much of
> > it I already know but not all, Paul Chandler's suggestions to look at the
> > earlier commentaries is my next step.
> >
> > Thank you all!!
> > cecilia
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew
> > Milligan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > >
> > > John is right.  There is quite a lot of this kind of thing in English
> > > episcopal registers.  Alison McHardy calendars several examples
> (largely
> to
> > > support the king in war and peace) in her edition of Royal Writs
> Addressed
> > > to John Buckingham, Bishop of Lincoln 1362-98 (Canterbury and York
> Society,
> > > vol 86, 1997)  She does not quote the writs in full but has references
> to
> > > Rymer's Foedera where they are printed in extenso.  The Foedera is now
> > > available online
> http://www.british-history.ac.**uk/catalogue.aspx?gid=152<
> http://www.british-history.ac.uk/catalogue.aspx?gid=152>
> > > .
> > >
> > > Rosemary Hayes
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Shinners" <
> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]**AC.UK
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 4:40 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] bibliography on the efficacy of prayer
> > >
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > >
> > > You've probably already got this, Cecilia, but Rosemary Horrox has a
> few
> > > bits from English episcopal registers attaching the intercessionary
> prayers
> > > to be said accompanying processions against the plague (in _The Black
> > > Death_, p. 111 ff.) but no descriptions of an actual procession.
>  There's
> > > also a mandate for processions against the plague and an accompaying
> prayer
> > > from Archbp. William Courtenay in Wilkins _Concilia_, v. 3, 156-57
> > > translated in Shinners & Dohar, _Pastors and the Care of Souls in
> Medieval
> > > England_ pp. 285-86.  I'm happy to send you a typescript of the latter.
> > >
> > > Somewhere in the documents about medieval Jews in Oxford there's a
> brief
> > > description of a procession for the BVM (I think) mocked by a young
> Jewish
> > > man.  I'd have to do a little digging to get that one but can if you'd
> > > like. Some mandates to do public penance describe what the penitent
> should
> > > wear (usually just a shirt &  barefooted) and carry in procession
> around
> a
> > > church but I don't know of any eyewitness accounts.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > John
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Chandler"
> <[log in to unmask]**COM<[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > To: [log in to unmask]**UK <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 8:05:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] bibliography on the efficacy of prayer
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > > Cecilia, you may have already done this, but I would go first to the
> > > Dictionnaire de spiritualit é and hunt around under any likely
> keywords.
> > >
> > > There may be something useful in Doris L. Bergen (ed.), The Sword of
> the
> > > Lord: Military Chaplains from the First to the Twenty-First Century
> (2004).
> > > It includes a chapter on The medieval military chaplain and his duties
> by
> > > David Bachrach, which is based on his Ph.D. thesis, which may also be
> of
> > > use. Recently there is K.A. Smith's War and the Making of Medieval
> Monastic
> > > Culture (2011).
> > >
> > > The commentaries on Exodus 17.8-16 (where Moses prays with outstretched
> > > arms during the battle against the Amalekites) would also be worth
> > > checking. Cornelius a Lapide's Commentaria in Sacram Scripturam usually
> > > mentions the main patristic and medieval commentators on any given
> passage
> > > and can be a good kick-off point. -- Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4 February 2012 00:15, Cecilia Gaposchkin < [log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > > Hello friends,
> > >
> > > I am working right now on issues around ritual and liturgical
> > > supplications to God ("clamours") and have come across a few explicit
> > > statements about the efficacy of prayer and supplication to God. This
> is
> > > the context of warfare, and (in the case I am thinking of, Honorius
> III)
> > > gives a long defense, with lots of references to the Old Testament, of
> how
> > > prayer can turn things around for armies.
> > >
> > > I want to follow this up. Does anyone know of bibliography around this
> > > issue, either about medieval discussions on the efficacy of
> > > prayer/liturgical supplication, or - even better, the efficacy in the
> > > context of war?
> > >
> > > Also, I'll throw this in, if anyone can point me to a contextual
> > > literature on penitential processions. I have lots of references to the
> > > calling of penitential processions, but I'd love to get a sense of what
> > > prayers, litanies, psalms, and so forth, were actually
> prescribed/performed
> > > in these. If anybody has either specific (medieval) examples, or a
> > > liturature that has looked into this, I'd love the reference.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all!
> > > cecilia
> > >
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