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Feb. 2 Dear Ted, Many thanks for this reference. I don't even know who Hereward Tilton is. The papers came from where? The AAR? I am no expert, so that I may have to rely on that fellow on the list--I don't recall his name--who boasted of his skill at writing scholarly articles for pay on any topic. Best, Robert ________________________________________ From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ted Hand [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:56 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Thanks to everyone from the list who helped Hey Robert, (or anyone else who's interested...) Have you seen Hereward Tilton's recent talk (video and pdf available) which criticizes Hanegraaff's critique of "religionist" approaches to esotericism? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW5XRqBvka4 http://phoenixrising.org.gr/wp-content/upload/PRA%20session%20programme.pdf http://phoenixrising.org.gr/en/events/past-events/3711-2/#.Tymmx4Hnnt9 I'm not sure if he's got an adequate reply, and I'd be interested to hear what you think about the rest of the papers from the session. I'm beginning to despair of all this theory of esotericism confusion. On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Segal, Professor Robert A. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Feb. 1 Dear Sam, Thanks for your comment. I'd not realized that the New Age movement even considers itself instititutionalized since the most common distinction drawn with traditional religion--or even, as is put, with religion per se--is the absence of institutiionalization, which I find unrealistic. Certainly institututions can be rigid and dogmatic. I was merely saying that, whether good or bad, institutionalization is necessary for a movement of any kind to survive. Weber introduces the notion of the institutionalization of charisma--an attempt to keep the religion going while preserving the original character of it. Best, Robert ________________________________________ From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Samuel Wagar [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 4:58 PM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Thanks to everyone from the list who helped > You raise excellent points, but can I suggest that New Age culture was > institutionalized a long time ago While I'm certainly not going to diss institutions, as a founding member of a small church, the vitality of a religion (or any other social structure) comes from the movement surrounding the institutions. When a back and forth exchange happens on the popular culture level between the various institutions and the movement surrounding and sustaining them, both are healthy, when one or the other comes to be too dominant, both falter. Those involved in institutions tend to believe they own the religion or the movement, while those principally involved in the amorphous movement don't see the value of social capital imbedded in long-last impersonal structures, policies and procedures. Best, Sam Wagar The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683. The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.