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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture There is a canon from the early fourth-century Council of Elvira that asserts that all clergy ordained to the diaconate and above needed to be celibate (obviously, this was really just a local council and had little, if any, force). I’m not at all sure of the term Nicolaitism (aside from the fact that it’s obviously named for someone named Nicholas). My initial thought would be that there may have been a 10th or 11th century theologian named Nicholas who argued in favor of clerical marriage. On the other hand, it could easily be a reference to the first-century Nicolaitans, especially since Irenaeus described them as licentious, Bede and Aquinas attribute sexual immorality to them. Polemicists and synodal condemnations frequently describe heretics with the labels of the great heretics of old (iconophiles and iconoclasts took turns accusing one another of being either monophysites or Nestorians). From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marjorie Greene Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 2:50 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] training of a priest medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture According to Wiki, the fight against clerical marriage began earlier than the Greg. Reform. I found this when I looked up "nicolaitism," the term for clerical marriage/concubinage. " In 888, two local councils, that of Metz and that of Mainz, prohibited cohabitation even with wives living in continence. This tendency was taken up by the 11th century Gregorian Reform<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_Reform>, which aimed at eliminating what it called "Nicolaitism",[49]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy#cite_note-48> that is clerical marriage<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_marriage>, which in spite of being theoretically excluded was in fact practised,[50]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy#cite_note-49> and concubinage." I looked up "nicolaitism" in an effort to find its etymology and came up short as I have no access to huge on-line dictionaries. If anyone can help, please let me know. MG Marjorie Greene http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/ --- On Mon, 1/23/12, Kurt Sherry <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Kurt Sherry <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [M-R] training of a priest To: [log in to unmask] Date: Monday, January 23, 2012, 4:12 PM medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture When I was in grad school, I was in a course called something like Medieval Religious Dissent and one of the issues we studied was marriage among the clergy (which in 1000 was perfectly normal, but had become legally "aberrant" by 1100, but for another couple of centuries, clerical concubinage was pretty common, at least outside of Italy). I don't recall the different books and articles we examined, but I do recall that there is a very good sourcebook on my shelf at home that has some of the letters and such). Brundage may discuss the topic, too. The issue of training priests and its connection to celibacy is an interesting one and it raises some interesting questions. Was Greg 7's decision partly about having greater controls over the education/training/liturgical practice of priests (i.e., if the priests had to be trained in the monastery and cathedral schools, would that allow for more standardization of practice and simply being more assured that the priests actually knew the rudiments)? The Council of Trent decreed that every bishop had to establish a seminary, so formal institutions were clearly regarded as "normal" (even though the decree indicates that they weren't necessarily present) by the late 1500s/early 1600s. Examining the Eastern Churches might allow for some good parallels, since Orthodox priests are married and have children, so it could be interesting to see how priests were trained in the Byzantine Empire, in Romania, in Serbia, in Bulgaria, in Russia, and in the Middle East. I have never really examined the issue. I know that there were well-established universities in the major cities of the Empire (Constantinople and Thessaloniki, particularly--in fact, when the Italians decided to have a Renaissance, they poached scholars from these universities). I know that by the 17th century or so, the Russians had seminaries, but for some reason that has never been entirely clear to me, they did their instruction in Latin, rather than Russian or Greek. I don't know how many priests were educated in such institutions, though; I rather suspect that such education was reserved for a few special members of the clergy who came from aristocratic backgrounds. Even today, in Greece, the seminary education is only a one-year program designed to teach the guys how to do the services rather than training them for pastoral work (the idea being that such knowledge is gained on the job, as it were, which is why in Greek tradition, not all priests are actually blessed to hear confessions, whereas all priests in the Russian tradition are). Still today, I know quite a few priests whose fathers (or grandfathers) were priests, so there still seems to be a certain following in the family business approach. -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Christopher Crockett Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:52 AM To: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [M-R] training of a priest medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: Kurt Sherry <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>> > I would add that informal apprenticeship, rather than formal training, would have been the norm before celibacy was the norm—guys learning the craft from their fathers. which means that one of the unintended consequences of the "reform" movement of the late 11th-12th cc. would have been a need for some sort of institutional way of making up for the complete abolition of what had previously been a more or less "private" sort of apprenticeship training, established over hundreds of years --one which was perhaps never fully implemented but which was still in substantial practice in the time of Greg 7 and Ivo of Chartres. somewhere, some decades ago, i read someone who made the statement that something like half of the clergy in England were "married" in c. 1100. no source or discussion was given but i do remember that whoever it was who wrote that opinion was someone i generally respected. c ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html%0a> ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html%0a> ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html