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Hugh - definitely positive interest, rest assured. Thanks for the more archaeological example. Nick ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh Sent: 18 January 2012 17:20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Nick, Is that positive interest? The case on the docks is rather complicated and I can't discuss on an open forum, but if anyone would like to discuss our use of an Article 4 to control demolition I'd be happy to talk off-list. With regards to the subject of Archaeology on a Local List, here's one of my examples (excluding the pictures) that I hope to get approved as part of the update of the Grimsby list: Name: Medieval Waterfront at the Riverhead, Grimsby Date Designated: N/A - New Proposal Grid Reference: TA 2700 0950 Conservation Area: None Description Archaeological trial excavations carried out in 1986 in the south east angle of the junction between the River Freshney and the Riverhead dock found the well preserved remains of the timber medieval dock wall and a later 18th century timber dock wall. The survival of these waterfronts is truly exceptional and they should be considered to be of national interest in their own rights. The associated archaeological deposits behind the walls and also in the former dock basin will be of extremely high importance for their potential to provide unique information on the activities of the port and its influence on the growth and development of the town. A site like this which is in an Urban area (under a public open space)and where it is unlikely that I'd be able to define the site with 100% certainty is extremely unlikely to be scheduled, but it is still (in my opinion anyway) of national interest. I can estimate it's position, based on the trial excavation and historic maps, well enough to put a polygon around it and it's inclusion in the Local List should mean that no one can claim ignorance that a very important feature is on the site. I know some people are worried about making other sites seem unimportant, but I'm hoping that there is enough case evidence for undesignated buildings and archaeological sites being successfully defended in the planning process that a more elaborately hierarchical structure won't cause more than a few teething issues (fingers and toes crossed). Cheers, Hugh Hugh Winfield Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire DN37 9TZ Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216 Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crank, Nick Sent: 18 January 2012 16:52 To: Winfield, Hugh Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Good point Hugh - I took great interest as did my Conservation colleagues in your recent use of Article 4s in Grimsby too. The relevant section from the EH guidance on Local Lists here is: 3.3.4. Handling assets of potential national importance In certain cases assets of potential statutory or national importance may be identified as part of the local listing process. In such situations - for instance where a selection panel feels that an asset meets the criteria for national designation - nominations should be referred to English Heritage in the normal manner. Nick Crank Senior Archaeological Officer T: 01908 254259 [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk <http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/archaeology> /archaeology Milton Keynes Council | Conservation & Archaeology | Civic Offices | 1 Saxon Gate East | Milton Keynes MK9 3EJ Discover Milton Keynes HER: www.HeritageGateway.org.uk <http://www.HeritageGateway.org.uk> Explore MKiHeritage Theme: www.MKiObservatory.org.uk ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh Sent: 18 January 2012 16:48 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities You can easily put in the description that they are "probably" or "possibly" of national importance, and then you have a combination of Cabinet/Committee approval and PPS5 backing you up for treating them in the planning process as equivalent importance to Scheduled Monuments. I think Local List inclusion for Urban sites, which are unsuitable for Scheduling, is very important. Parks and Gardens are another where I think there is something, somewhere, saying that the Register is vastly under-representative of the actual number of nationally important sites. Hugh Winfield Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire DN37 9TZ Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216 Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Evans Sent: 18 January 2012 16:36 To: Winfield, Hugh Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities No - local listing does not exclude full listing, surely it is better than having no protection at all. David Evans Historic Environment Record Officer (Postal Address) Strategic Planning Policy & Specialist Advice Department of Environment and Community Services PO Box 2081 The Council Offices, Castle Street Thornbury South Gloucestershire BS35 9BP Phone: 01454 863649 fax: 01454 864473 ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crank, Nick Sent: 18 January 2012 16:33 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Really? But surely by putting them on a local list you are acknowledging that these monuments are of less than national importance? HE9.6 makes no mention of Local Lists. The relevant policy here is HE2: Evidence Base for Plan Making Regards Nick Crank Senior Archaeological Officer T: 01908 254259 [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk <http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/archaeology> /archaeology Milton Keynes Council | Conservation & Archaeology | Civic Offices | 1 Saxon Gate East | Milton Keynes MK9 3EJ Discover Milton Keynes HER: www.HeritageGateway.org.uk <http://www.HeritageGateway.org.uk> Explore MKiHeritage Theme: www.MKiObservatory.org.uk ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle Sent: 18 January 2012 16:09 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Sarah, Yes, this of particular interest because EH has more or less conceded (see PPS5: HE9.6) that there is a considerable number of monuments that warrant scheduling but which have not been designated. In the short term local listing would appear to offer them the best chance of enhancing the level of protection that they enjoy until EH can get its act together. Regards Chris Chris Wardle City Archaeologist Planning & Economic Development A11, New Walk Centre Leicester. LE1 6ZG From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hugh Winfield Sent: 18 January 2012 15:53 To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle Subject: Re: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Sarah, I was hoping to go to one of these, I think there is one in York at some point? But for my benefit and others, how much emphasis will there be on integrating Archaeological sites, Parks and Gardens and other Heritage Assets into the lists? Cheers, Hugh Hugh Winfield Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire DN37 9TZ Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216 Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <mailto:%5bmailto:[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of MACLEAN, Sarah Sent: 18 January 2012 11:44 To: Winfield, Hugh Subject: HELM Training Course - Developing a Local List for Local Authorities Dear all, Please see information received from HELM with regards upcoming Local Lists training course. Developing a Local List for Local Authorities HELM Training Course 8th March 2012, Birmingham This event introduces the English Heritage guidance on developing a local list (to be released early 2012). It will provide practical support and examples of good practice for any local authorities seeking to implement or improve a local list. It will also help decision makers understand the place of local lists in planning policy and the value of local heritage to the community For more information, including booking form, please see attached leaflet. best wishes Sarah MacLean Sarah MacLean Heritage Information Partnerships Supervisor English Heritage Designations Department Engine House Firefly Avenue Swindon SN2 2EH E-mail: [log in to unmask] Telephone: 01793 414880 This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available. 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