What ever happened to cultural relativity? The evaluative judgments presupposed or implicated in the discussion are troublesome, apart from the in/valid observational points.Walt WolframWalt Wolfram, William C. Friday Distinguished University Professor
Director, North Carolina Language and Life ProjectDept. of English, Box 8105Phone: (919)515-4151FAX: (919)515-1836
>>> VAR-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> 11/22/2011 7:00 PM >>>
There are 7 messages totaling 1176 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. US/UK differences (4)
2. US/UK differences (vs the rest of the world) (2)
3. Von Sprache und Mensch
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:05:57 +1100
From: Cara Penry Williams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences
Not that I am very knowledgeable about this (said very self-consciously
given the topic of discussion) but I have always thought collectivism was a
bit part of the differences, with American culture far more
individualistic.Therefore individual achievement is viewed
differently.There is of course a large range of differences within
'English', 'Australian' and 'American' cultures but also that in the US
people appeal more to positive politeness and in the UK and Australia
negative politeness. In which case these stereotypes people are discussing
of stand-offish Brits and overbearing Americans are a form of intercultural
communication difficulty because these differences are not recognised but
seen as a 'type' or personality trait. Also I have recently been thinking
that understanding the tall poppy syndrome as egalitarian is a very
positive view and it could also be seen as evidence of pressures of
assimilation and dislike of difference.
Cara Penry Williams
____________________________________
PhD Candidate
The University of Melbourne
On 22 November 2011 10:10, TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Finally, I hesitate ever to underestimate the importance of class in
> British society. I wouldn’t be surprised if the English (at least) middle
> classes self-imposed a regime of manners that was influenced by (perceived)
> upper-class norms during their attempts****
> to climb into social prominence, after having been perceived as
> noisy/gauche, so that such norms might have been transmitted more
> effectively from a small dominant group than actual speech patterns, which
> rely on face-to-face interaction (at least, then).****
> ** **
>
>
> This doesnt seem likely to me. It is not probable that the middle classes
> would have perceived the upper-clss norms so inaccurately. It's much more
> likely to be to do with working-class solidarity, collectivism and an
> egalitarian ideology*, which is also what seems to me to be behind the
> Australasian "tall poppy" syndrome
> and the corresponding Scandinavian "Janteloven" - see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law.
>
> *(Stephen Fry reckons that the British class system actually has the
> consequence that no one is actually supposed to behave as if they were any
> better than anybody else.)
>
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> sociolinguistics.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:42:23 -0500
From: Claire Bowern <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences
Two things here, both methodological. First, there is massive confirmation
bias in reports of stereotypes like this - every "loud" American overseas
is seen as a reinforcement of the generalisation, whereas of course all the
"non-loud" Americans don't negate that view because people with this
stereotype just don't notice them. I'm surprised that no one has pointed
this out. It makes reports on behavior (even from professional linguists)
very unreliable.
Similarly, I'm intrigued that no one has yet mentioned football hooligans,
since they are a highly visible set of English (I'm assuming English rather
than British but that may not be right) travelers abroad who do not have a
good reputation. Perhaps people are more willing to assume that football
hooligans are not representative of English culture, whereas conversely
they are more willing to assume that Americans abroad are representative of
Americans in general. That brings me to my second point - what evidence is
there for that? Only about 30% of Americans have passports, and I doubt
that that is an adequately stratified sample of the general US population.
Someone raised the point earlier that the US sees itself as more internally
diverse than the rest of the world does; the flipside of that is that the
Americans one meets outside the US aren't a representative sample.
Finally, remember that such stereotypes also exist within regions of the
US. When I moved to Texas after living in Massachusetts for five years,
many people told me how happy I must be to be living in a more friendly
part of the US, because after all, the South is supposed to be so much less
up-tight and aggressive and so much more welcoming than those
northerners. (For what it's worth, that wasn't how I would characterise any
difference in behavior; there were substantial difference in racial
interaction (or lack thereof, especially in Houston), degrees of
passive-aggressive behaviour, but "friendliness" didn't come into it.)
Claire
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 7:05 PM, Cara Penry Williams
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Not that I am very knowledgeable about this (said very self-consciously
> given the topic of discussion) but I have always thought collectivism was a
> bit part of the differences, with American culture far more
> individualistic.Therefore individual achievement is viewed
> differently.There is of course a large range of differences within
> 'English', 'Australian' and 'American' cultures but also that in the US
> people appeal more to positive politeness and in the UK and Australia
> negative politeness. In which case these stereotypes people are discussing
> of stand-offish Brits and overbearing Americans are a form of intercultural
> communication difficulty because these differences are not recognised but
> seen as a 'type' or personality trait. Also I have recently been thinking
> that understanding the tall poppy syndrome as egalitarian is a very
> positive view and it could also be seen as evidence of pressures of
> assimilation and dislike of difference.
>
>
> Cara Penry Williams
> ____________________________________
> PhD Candidate
> The University of Melbourne
>
>
>
> On 22 November 2011 10:10, TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Finally, I hesitate ever to underestimate the importance of class in
>> British society. I wouldn’t be surprised if the English (at least) middle
>> classes self-imposed a regime of manners that was influenced by (perceived)
>> upper-class norms during their attempts****
>> to climb into social prominence, after having been perceived as
>> noisy/gauche, so that such norms might have been transmitted more
>> effectively from a small dominant group than actual speech patterns, which
>> rely on face-to-face interaction (at least, then).****
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> This doesnt seem likely to me. It is not probable that the middle classes
>> would have perceived the upper-clss norms so inaccurately. It's much more
>> likely to be to do with working-class solidarity, collectivism and an
>> egalitarian ideology*, which is also what seems to me to be behind the
>> Australasian "tall poppy" syndrome
>> and the corresponding Scandinavian "Janteloven" - see
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law.
>>
>> *(Stephen Fry reckons that the British class system actually has the
>> consequence that no one is actually supposed to behave as if they were any
>> better than anybody else.)
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist
>> sociolinguistics.
>>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
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--
-----
Claire Bowern
Associate Professor
Department of Linguistics
Yale University
370 Temple St
New Haven, CT 06511
North American Dialects survey:
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~clb3/NorthAmericanDialects/
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:09:34 -0500
From: Angus Grieve-Smith <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences
On 11/21/2011 8:42 PM, Claire Bowern wrote:
> Someone raised the point earlier that the US sees itself as more
> internally diverse than the rest of the world does; the flipside of
> that is that the Americans one meets outside the US aren't a
> representative sample.
Yes, I haven't read this Thomas Kochman, but I would also add that
"Anglo Whites" are a lot more diverse than he seems to be giving us
credit for. I've certainly seen plenty of bragging among various white
American men, often with a detached, self-deprecating sarcastic tone to
diffuse the impact.
Colin Woodard has been the most visible person discussing diversity
among "Anglo" Americans lately:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-29/real-u-s-map-a-country-of-regions-part-1-commentary-by-colin-woodard.html
--
-Angus B. Grieve-Smith
Saint John's University
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:27:31 -0700
From: Rudy Troike <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences (vs the rest of the world)
Culturally, some of this may begin with training in childhood. An oft-
repeated aphorism when I was growing up was "Children should be seen
and not heard", which was quoted as having applied (in the US) up
through post-Victorian times. When I was in Taiwan, and heard a noisy
child in a restaurant, I never even had to turn around to know that it
was an American. Chinese children are usually very quiet, as are adults.
NB: Let us be mindful of Damien's earlier request that in responding to
posts, we not include every previous post on the thread, which includes
every previous post on the thread, which includes every previous post...
Rudy Troike
University of Arizona
Tucson, Arizona USA
<[log in to unmask]>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:05:07 +0100
From: TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences (vs the rest of the world)
Participants in this exchange might like to look at Dorothy's nice blog at
http://deevybee.blogspot.com/2011/11/importance-of-not-being-earnest-on.html
Peter
On 22 Nov 2011, at 04:27, Rudy Troike wrote:
> Culturally, some of this may begin with training in childhood. An oft-
> repeated aphorism when I was growing up was "Children should be seen
> and not heard", which was quoted as having applied (in the US) up
> through post-Victorian times. When I was in Taiwan, and heard a noisy
> child in a restaurant, I never even had to turn around to know that it
> was an American. Chinese children are usually very quiet, as are adults.
>
> NB: Let us be mindful of Damien's earlier request that in responding to
> posts, we not include every previous post on the thread, which includes
> every previous post on the thread, which includes every previous post...
>
> Rudy Troike
> University of Arizona
> Tucson, Arizona USA
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 13:51:21 +0000
From: Jonathan Richard Kasstan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Von Sprache und Mensch
Dear colleagues,
Can anybody advise as to whether or not an English (or French) translation of W. von Wartburg. 1956. Von Sprache und Mensch: zusammengestellt von Kurt Baldinger und Alfred Thierbach (Berne: Frencke) was ever produced?
Many thanks in advance.
Kind regards,
Jonathan Kasstan
PhD. candidate
Department of English Language and Linguistics
School of European Culture and Languages
University of Kent
+44 7745094709
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:05:16 +1300
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: US/UK differences
This is very good. The "very interesting" gloss and translation is spot on...
Miriam Meyerhoff
Professor of Linguistics, DALSL
University of Auckland
Private Bag 92019
Auckland 1142
New Zealand
+64 9 373 7999 x85236
http://www.artsfaculty.auckland.ac.nz/staff/?UPI=mmey023
On 22/11/2011, at 12:01 PM, Rémi A. van Compernolle wrote:
> Here's something that circulated around Facebook a week ago or so (image attached). A bit tongue-in-cheek, but it certainly speaks to the fact that there are some salient differences across languacultures in the minds of non-linguists...
>
> RAvC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TRUDGILL Peter
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:52 PM
> Subject: Fwd: US/UK differences
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: 21 November 2011 18:06:22 GMT
>> To: TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: US/UK differences
>>
>> Here's an actual example of cross-cultural misunderstanding.
>>
>> In his testimony at a corruption trial in Germany, Bernie Ecclestone reported that the defendant was "angry" after misunderstanding the English way of negotiating:
>>
>> "I wouldn't say I misled him," said Ecclestone, referring to a discussion that the two men had about going into
>> business together, "but being English, it's very difficult to say no to people. I say "let's think about it.: Which
>> in English is a very clear no. People don't always understand that."
>>
>> Guardian, 10 November, 2011, p.13
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: VAR-L <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2011 4:16 am
>> Subject: Re: US/UK differences
>>
>> And actually, re Rudi's insightful message, I have often supposed that the real operative parameter here is "(un)willingness to be overheard". Clearly the Americans that get noticed are those who are not averse to being overheard, which strikes most northern Europeans as odd, and self-aggrandising. But isn't it true that the British aristocracy and upper-classes also stereotypically have no inhibitions about being overheard either?
>>
>> So perhaps we are adding some refinements and nuances to our stereotyping, which I hope will mollify Paul a little.
>>
>> And the numbers which have been supplied are also useful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21 Nov 2011, at 11:57, Kevin McCafferty wrote:
>>
>>> In Carmen Fought's Language and ethnicity (CUP, 2006) there's a discussion of differences between Euro-American and African American styles of boasting behaviour or self-praise. The examples used are Muhammad Ali and Venus and Serena Williams, and the point being made is that their self-praise fits an African American community norm that can be misunderstood outside that community - intra-US differences along the same lines as the US-UK ones, in other words!
>>>
>>> Kevin McCafferty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20 Nov 2011, at 19:40, Dorothy Bishop wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many thanks to all of you who have replied. There's lots of food for thought there and I greatly appreciate the time people have taken to get back to me.
>>>> The background was an observation I made about the profiles people write for themselves on Twitter.
>>>> I tried to check this out with a very quick and dirty analysis of my own, which seemed to confirm the pattern, and which I have covered in a light-hearted, but I hope not offensive blogpost.
>>>>
>>>> More seriously, I am dimly aware that some people have been analysing databases from social media interactions, which do have the advantage of being readily available, but I don't know how far sociolinguists have regarded this as a resource. There might be potential there for a more serious analysis of cultural variation in what people put in their very brief self-descriptions. This is a long way from naturalistic conversations, of course, but it's better than self-evaluation, I think. The jokey rather self derogatory style is pretty striking among a proportion of those from the UK.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't want to suggest that one style is inherently better than the other - rather, as Peter suggested, that if you are steeped in British culture than there are some aspects of others' communcations that really jar, and this can interfere with interactions. My interest is not in perpetrating stereotypes but in seeing what differences actually exist. Kate Fox is spot on I think.
>>>>
>>>> I found Devyani's comments intriguing. I doubt that social class has much to do with it though: the upper classes are, and always have been, a small proportion of the population, and the rest of us are no more likely to imitate their communicative content any more than their accents.
>>>> It's fascinating for me also to see the comments on the blog: It's clear that some non-Brits do find the British style irritating and insincere, which are exactly the criticisms that the Brits make of some others.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for all your help.
>>>>
>>>> Dorothy Bishop, Professor of Developmental Neuropsychology,
>>>> Dept of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford, OX1 3UD.
>>>> tel +44 (0)1865 271369; fax +44 (0)1865 281255;
>>>> WEB: http://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/oscci/
>>>> Blog: http://deevybee.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>> From: Variationist List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian MacWhinney [[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: 20 November 2011 18:05
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: US/UK differences
>>>>
>>>> Dear VAR-L,
>>>>
>>>> The discussion of cultural differences in communication style and intercultural communication patterns is a topic that is certain to never go away; and, as globalization progresses, it becomes increasingly important. The idea in the Goddard-Haugh project of studying actual naturalistic recordings is a great one. Without such grounding, we would have to rely on weak measures such as self-evaluation inventories. But if these recordings are not made public, along with the interesting analyses they engender, then it seems to me we can fall back into a closed circle of stereotypes. Even if the stereotypes end up having validity, I think multiple researchers coming from different perspectives need to be able to see how these forces play out in individual segments and dimensions of face-to-face interaction.
>>>> More generally, have people like the Scollons, Kasper, Tannen, Trudgill, or others famous for their work on such issues ever made data available (password-protected or whatever) that would allow other researchers to see these patterns? The creation of such public materials for sociolinguistic analysis is the theme of an upcoming LSA workshop on "Sociolinguistic Archival Preparation" (http://www.lsadc.org/info/meet-annual12-sociolinguistic.cfm). It seems to me that the time has come for sociolinguists to take the issue of data-sharing seriously.
>>>> Are there already projects out there (preferably with associated media) that are willing to open up their data for general use by researchers? I have composed a general list of materials of interest to sociolinguists – some open, some not – at this URL: http://talkbank.org/SocioBank. The corpora there listed as in TalkBank are freely available. Those in LDC are available, but only to paying subscribers. Many of the others are not easily available. If any of you know of any materials I could add to this list, or corpora that can be shared, please tell me.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -- Brian MacWhinney, CMU [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 4:36 PM, Adam Schembri wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This news item from the latest Australian Linguistics Society newsletter might be of interest:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Goddard and Michael Haugh of Griffith University, along with American partner investigator Donal Carbaugh (U. Mass), were awarded an Australian Research Council Discovery project: Australians and Americans talking: culture, interaction and communication style. The 100-word summary read as follows: "Despite the similarities, there are important differences in how Australians and Americans conduct everyday verbal interaction: in self-presentation, face work, sarcasm and joking, use of religious language and swear words, and other areas. Combining interactional pragmatics, semantic analysis and cultural discourse analysis, this project will study face-to-face interaction between Australians and Americans. It will identify and explain communication style differences, linking them with cultural values and attitudes. Using naturalistic recordings and corpus data, the project will also develop improved methodologies and advance empirical standards in intercultural communication studies generally."
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>> --
>>>>> Assoc. Prof. Adam Schembri, BA DipEd, MLitt, PhD
>>>>> Director | National Institute for Deaf Studies and Sign Language
>>>>> La Trobe University | Melbourne (Bundoora) | Victoria | 3086 | Australia
>>>>> Tel: +61 3 9479 2887 | Fax: +61 3 9479 3074 |http://www.adamschembri.net/webpage/Welcome.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: TRUDGILL Peter <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:50:31 +1100
>>>>> To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: US/UK differences
>>>>>
>>>>> This is all very true, and has been commented on anecdotally and informally many times - see my book "Coping with America: a beginners guide to the USA" (Blackwell). As far as academic discussion is concerned, yes, there is that too by scholars working in e.g. the ethnography of speaking and inter-cultural communication etc., though I've no idea how systematic it has been. No doubt people more knowledgeable than me will be providing references very soon. But I would like to ask: is this just the US vs the UK, or is it rather the US vs, well, most other places?
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Trudgill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 Nov 2011, at 08:09, Dorothy Bishop wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A question from a psychologist with little knowledge of sociolinguistics.
>>>>>> Can anyone point me to information on UK/US differences in language used for self-presentation.
>>>>>> Impression is that in UK there is this aversion for self-promotion or talking about one's achievements, which is not found in US.
>>>>>> I'm interested in idea that normal discourse by Americans can come across as boastful/insincere to British, whereas British can come across to Americans as dysfunctionally insecure losers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dorothy Bishop, Professor of Developmental Neuropsychology,
>>>>>> Dept of Experimental Psychology, University of Oxford, OX1 3UD.
>>>>>> tel +44 (0)1865 271369; fax +44 (0)1865 281255;
>>>>>> WEB: http://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/oscci/
>>>>>> Blog: http://deevybee.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist sociolinguistics.
>>>>>> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link:
>>>>>> http://jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1
>>>>>
>>>>> _____________________________________________
>>>>> Peter Trudgill FBA
>>>>> Prof. of Sociolinguistics, Agder Univ., N;
>>>>> Adjunct Prof., RCLT, La Trobe Univ., AU;
>>>>> Prof. Emeritus of Eng. Linguistics, Fribourg Univ, CH;
>>>>> Hon. Prof. of Sociolinguistics, UEA, Norwich, UK
>>>>>
>>>>> New book: Sociolinguistic typology: social determinants of linguistic structure and complexity. OUP. 2011.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist sociolinguistics.
>>>>> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to:
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>>>>>
>>>>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist sociolinguistics.
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist sociolinguistics.
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> <AngloEU_translation.jpg>
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End of VAR-L Digest - 21 Nov 2011 to 22 Nov 2011 (#2011-110)
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The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist sociolinguistics.
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