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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear All, My e-mail client has been very uncooperative lately. Herewith (if it comes through) the message that I thought I had saved and then sent: To add to what christopher has said below, herewith an example that will have been seen by many travelers to Venice after ca. 1172: Theodore of Amasea (the city's earliest patron saint) astride a crocodile on one of those raised columns next to the Doges' palace: http://tinyurl.com/ybs64g3 http://tinyurl.com/ylg8wf8 http://tinyurl.com/38xgrr http://tinyurl.com/yjksnaw That's a replica. Here's the original, on display _in_ the Palazzo Ducale: http://www.museumplanet.com/tour.php/venice/dp12 http://www.flickr.com/photos/joeanty/4245202968 To narrow the question, when do recently deceased bishops begin so to be portrayed? Best John Dillon On 11/04/11, Christopher Crockett wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > From: "Cormack, Margaret Jean" <[log in to unmask]> > > >Can you (or other list members) comment on how common it is for a saint to > be portrayed treading on a dragon, and when the motif starts to appear? > > > the motif is, of course, quite ancient --think: an Egyptian god or Pharaoh > striding on the back of a crocodile (symbol of Seth, an evil god), holding a > lance and stabbing the beast in the mouth with it. > > (an interesting variation is in a Coptic relief, 2,000 years later, in the > Louvre depicting a mounted "Roman" soldier stabbing a crocodile, under his > horse, in the mouth.) > > but, it is may be that the English tomb sculptor did not have Egyptian > artifacts before his eyes, or even in mind. > > closer in time (and space) might be somewhat later manifestations of the > theme, as on the South porch of Chartres cathedral: > > http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/getimage-idx?cc=chartres;entryid=x-fcsp333610220;viewid=FCSP333610220.TIF;quality=m800;view=image > > http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/getimage-idx?cc=chartres;entryid=x-fcsp333610225;viewid=FCSP333610225.TIF;quality=m800;view=image > > the figure of the bishop on the right has been identified by Clarke Maines > (and, perhaps largely accepted) as Becket, standing on Hank 2 and, as it were, > Giving him the Shaft. > > > the Chartres figure is only a generation or so before the York tomb, and the > Becket connection might have particularly resonated with an English bishop. > > did Walt de Gray ever make a pilgrimage to Chartres? > > but, failing that, i would think that the motif is just too common to be able > to say with any certainty that Chartres was the "model" for the tomb effigy. > > i'm sure that there is literature on the de Gray tomb which will probably run > all this to Earth. > > c To narrow the question, when do recently deceased bishops begin so to be portrayed? ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html