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Hi Owain and the curious well, you have a good one here- of course Tina`s point is a strong one, I`m glad no one worried when Cartier-Bresson was at work. [my paintings produce unidentifiables when humans [or other-than-humans] are involved, so no matter.] my veering into ethics on this, more widely, was because these are more important than legal ones, really. but there is also the matter of art balanced with sensitivity. I dont think ANY researchers go out to irritate, but sensitivity is no bad thing [even I dont Always go out to irritate Crit geographers!, sometimes more open questions matter] best David ________________________________________ From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of JONES, Owain [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 06 September 2011 11:44 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: photographs in public places in UK Hi David, Tina, and others for comments on this. It useful set of ideas about using photography video in public space etc I just point out that some of the great artworks of the 20th c were the 'street photos' of people like Cartier-Bresson. These were often very up close, intimate and revealing of 'the-person-in-moment'. I assume permission was not gained before or after those works taken then circulated (eventually) very widely. (The same must go for all the photos in a book like Colin Ward's the Child in the City) (And Parr's work) David, as an artist, what is you response? (not saying 'research' and 'art practice' are the same politically and ethically - but a comparative consideration is of interest) cheers Dr Owain Jones Senior Research Fellow: Countryside & Community Research Institute / Contact Details Publications: Academia.edu/OwainJones Chair: Royal Geographical Society Research Group on Children Youth and Families Associate Editor: Journal of Children's Geographies Committee: Royal Geographical Society Social and Cultural Geography Research Group Associate: Land2 Visiting Fellow: School of Arts and Social Sciences, Northumbria University Priston Festival Mobile: 07871 572969 -----Original Message----- From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Crouch Sent: 06 September 2011 11:03 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: photographs in public places in UK Hi it is funny that discussions like these tend to work around notions of power, control, `state work/oppression/suppresion`- such is paranoia. and hardly bother to sense the feelings of individuals, families, etc etc, who may feel uneasy about being photographed, for a whole raft of reasons. David ________________________________________ From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matt Collins [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 05 September 2011 16:59 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: photographs in public places in UK Hi, There's a whole host of issues here, of course. To pick out a few... Informed consent - whilst the vast majority of research works on this model (imported, seemingly, from the medical sciences), you simply can't get informed consent from everyone if you're doing research in public spaces. Indeed, some universities have a clause in their ethics policy which reflects this (as mine did when I did my PhD), allowing you to do your research without trying to get informed consent from an entire city. In light of this, we have to ask ourselves whether or not our photographs can reasonably be expected to cause "harm" to those people in them, and proceed on that basis. And as Paul Williams just wrote, whether they may be exploiting the vulnerable. I would say that most of my research pictures - shots of crowds with some individuals distinguishable - could not be reasonably expected to cause any harm at all. I would also argue that if you want to take a picture of an individual for your research (close-up), then you ought to ask permission - there's much more likelihood of causing distress there. The right to withdraw from research - I don't see that this can be expected to apply to research on public spaces in the same way as other research. I would say that we have to accept, as a society, that to be in public means to appear before others (which is different from accepting state surveillance, which has no mutuality of appearance, a very different power relation). The only proviso I would add is that I'm assuming you're not going to be working to identify people in your pictures without their knowledge. Equally, if someone asks you to delete a photo, then do so. Whilst you can reasonably expect that photography won't cause 'distress', if it does, delete the picture and move on. Of course, the deeper issue here is that of what being "in public" means, which is perhaps a whole other debate. I think it's probably unfair to say that you can grab a camera and do what you like, at least in my experience. These are issues that will still be raised in the ethics review, with broad rules of behaviour subsequently set, but I think the best way to deal with them is to be sensitive to and observant of other's feelings when you're doing the actual research, on the ground. I've had some quite positive responses from the general public when taking photos in public space - people interested in what I'm doing or just happy to see someone taking an interest. I wonder if this is in part due to the fact that I was mainly operating outside London. Its levels of paranoia do seem to be markedly higher than those of other cities. I've actually never had a confrontation whilst taking pictures in public, and I wouldn't want others to be put off from it as a research method. I also wouldn't want to see the mission creep of the ethics boards destroy a valuable approach to cities and public spaces because it doesn't fit a standard model. I think as long as we're sane and sensitive about what we're doing we shouldn't worry. All the best, Matt- On 05/09/11 16:14, David Crouch wrote: > Hi > > in view of the manic ethical procedures for research practie in every other field [largely a v good thing] it is astounding that you can grab a camers and do what you like. > > interesting, worrying, worth a good debate- at least I`d hope professional-crit geographers would exercise good ethics > David > ________________________________________ > From: A forum for critical and radical geographers [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Deb Ranjan Sinha [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 31 August 2011 10:51 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: photographs in public places in UK > > while i am no lawyer, it should be OK according to this guideline: > > *Members of the public and the media do not need a permit to film or > photograph in public places and police have no power to stop them > filming or photographing incidents or police personnel.* > > http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:40 PM, Adefemi Kingsley Adekunle > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Does this apply to being stoppend and searched by the police? 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