On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Sue/Shya <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Ted;

Beginning of semester and memory becomes more sketchy as the years go by ;(

As Idel indicates in the article you linked (something weird about this article - no bibliographic info although clearly it comes from some academic journal (couldn't find it in a very quick search), and the English is poor - not Idel's style - makes me think it is a pirated translation from Hebrew), Reuchlin positions his Kabbalah as philosophy (good) as opposed to magic (bad). Scholem takes basically the same stand in his resurrection of the Kabbalah as a topic worthy of academic study. Because of course, back then, academic study of philosophy - good, of magic - bad. Somewhat simplistic, of course, but generally speaking.

And actually, I think as Idel as pointed out, Christian interpreters of Kabbalah, of which Reuchlin was perhaps the most influential, influenced Jewish Kabbalists quite a bit - at least in terms of their response.See "Jewish Kabbalah in Christian Garb Some Phenomenological Remarks" in The Hebrew Renaissance, 1997 eds Klepper and Signer, and "Jewish Thinkers versus Christian Kabbalah" in Christliche Kabbala 2003, Schmidt-Biggemann, Wilhelm.

Shya

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Ted Hand

To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]

Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 10:18 PM

Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Definition of Esotericism? (related to magick vs religion and Thelema Modern)

Hey Shya thanks for the correction, and good to hear from you. What I mean is that Reuchlin
seems to be working on a sort of theory of esotericism, although he's obviously not using the
term since it wasn't extant yet. (IIRC it doesn't show up 'til a few centuries later.) Cody should
definitely read your MA thesis if he wants to get a good overview of Reuchlin and an introduction
to the problem of theurgy. Can you say anything about the influence of Reuchlin on Scholem's
concept of Kabbalah?

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Sue/Shya <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

No Reuchlin doesn't approach the word esotericism Neither does he consider himself a magician, in fact rails against magic, - but rather a 'mainstream' Christian philosopher, offering up a program of reform.

My jump off point for anything esoteric is Wouter Hanegraaff's Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism.

Arthur Versluis's text on magic and Mysticism: An intro to Western Esotericism - he summarizes definitions and suggests his own - see my review in Aries 10.1 ,2010

And I think Wouter Hanegraaff's paper: Forbidden Knowledge Anti-Esoteric Polemics and Academic Research in Aries 5, 2005 is particularly good. Hanegraaff has spent a lot of time on the issue of defining WE - His ideas are evolving, as did Faivre's.

Esotericism/Western Esotericism is exactly what a particular scholar/practitioner/polemicist defines it as ;).

Shya Young

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Ted Hand

To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]

Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 8:45 PM

Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Definition of Esotericism? (related to magick vs religion and Thelema Modern)

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Ted Hand <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hey Cody, have you read Johannes Reuchlin's De Arte Kabbalistica? I don't remember
off the top of my head if he gives a definition of "esotericism" as you understand it, but
the text is very important for its theory of esotericism, which equates Kabbalah and
Christian mystical theology with pythagorean esoteric philosophy. Might be a good place
to look.

On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Cody Bahir <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear Kathryn,

Good to hear from you as well! Unfortunately, the links you provided do not actually address my question (though I do greatly appreciate the time you took listing each of them!). I might not have been as clear in what I am looking for as I had imagined.

I am seeking various definitions of what exactly esotericism is.

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Cody Bahir

To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]

Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 7:22 AM

Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Definition of Esotericism? (related to magick vs religion and Thelema Modern)

Dear Everyone,

I have been following the recent conversation on the list, particularly in regards to the distinction (if any) that exists between magic and religion. I have a few different (yet related) questions...

In terms of "esotericism" as a specific genre/phenomenon etc., additional to Faivre and Stuckrad, are the members of this list familiar with scholars that have attempted to "define" esotericism as a specific field of study/genre/phenomenon?

Of particular interest are authors who have contrasted esotericism with either mysticism or philosophy (especially the latter).

Additionally, definitions or examples of esoteric: textual hermeneutics, interpretations of ritual/liturgy and art (especially those contrasted with their "exoteric" counterparts) would be particularly appreciated.

I am most interested in recent scholarship but would also appreciate primary sources from Christian, Gnostic, Islamic or classical Greco-Roman texts. I am not, however, seeking references on Masonic, Thelemic, Neo-Pagan or similar "modern" modes of discourse and interpretation.

Thanks so much!

Kind regards,

Cody Bahir

--
Cody Bahir M.A.J.S.

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Cody Bahir M.A.J.S.

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Cody Bahir M.A.J.S.