Hi Angela,
As you know, I am deeply involved in these issues.
However, I have questions about Kripal’s statement.
First I wonder how anyone can distinguish a ‘shallow
subjectivism that yields little more than private experience’ from an ‘interpersonal
communion with the object of their study’.
Second, he refers to the ‘genuinely mystical’. Who
is to judge whether someone’s mystical experience is genuine or false?
It seems to me that he is introducing an elitist, hierarchical,
value system in which some people’s inner experience is more valid than
others.
I just don’t know how anyone can judge such things. Any
ideas?
All the best,
Nick
From: Society for The
Academic Study of Magic [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Angela Voss
Sent: 16 September 2011 13:33
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Rv: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Academic
Writing 2
Dear
Ana
I
understand exactly what you are saying. Peter Kingsley is an old friend of
mine, and he represents that rare breed, the gnostic scholar. I would
like to share with this list a paragraph in Jeffrey Kripal's book 'Roads of Excess,
Palaces of Wisdom', where he outlines the kind of perspective I think you are
talking about. It is certainly the perspective I try to cultivate. In the
metaphor established so thoroughly by Iain McGilchrist, it 'has a foot in both
brain hemispheres' and is therefore unitive, holistic and transformative:
“[These]
scholars ... possess unusual powers of imagination, receptivity, discipline,
and experience that allow them to enter religious worlds in a different way.
For these scholars, academic method and personal experience cannot be so easily
separated. “Objectivity” is transcended not in a shallow
subjectivism that yields little more than private experience (however profound
and personally meaningful), but in an interpersonal communion with the object
of their study that produces, among other things, powerful insights into the
nature of religion that stand the test of time and withstand the criticisms and
researches of the larger academic community. There is something genuinely
mystical about the work of such scholars, for their interpretations and
writings issue from a peculiar kind of “hermeneutical union”. They
do not so much process religious data as unite with sacred realities, whether
in the imagination, the hidden depths of the soul, or the very fabric of the
psychophysical selves. Here in such moments, the hermeneutical understandings
and insights of such scholars clearly transgress the boundaries of academic
study or speculation. In their subjective poles, these understandings become
personally transformative; in their objecti ve poles, they produce genuine
insights into the nature of the phenomena under study. These are types of
understanding that are at once passionate and critical, personal and objective,
religious and academic. Such forms of knowledge are not simply academic,
although they are that as well, and rigorously so. But they are also
transformative, and sometimes sotierological. In a word, the knowledge of such
a historian of religions approaches a kind of gnosis.”
bw
Angela
Dr Angela Voss
10 Arnold Road
Chartham
Canterbury CT4 7QL
07787 434958
01227 732457
From: Society
for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Odrade Atreed [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 12:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Rv: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Academic
Writing 2
Dear
caroline and kaostar,
I am
sorry, but I disagree. Perhaps the problem is not that pagans do not understand
the way of academic research. Perhaps is the way back.
I will
try to explain my position.
First of
all, you talk about the success of Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail´s novels. I
don´t think it is relevant here. Every writer knows, as Sol Stein has explained
really well, that to attract the mass attention you have to
write
something which is different from reality, more desirable or terrible, but
something which the reader want to be into. You create fantasy, because reality
is more plain, but from a "realistical point of view".
Now,
about why pagans prefer Whitmore to Hutton. I cannot explain this particular
point, because I am not pagan but I think my case is not very different from
pagans, so I will explain myself to ilustrate the point. I am philosopher,
five years degree and two years master and doing a thesis about pragmatism.
But, primary, I am a magician and astrologer, with ten years practice on my
back. And I prefer Reality from Peter Kignsley, an unofficial vision of
Parmenides to the official philosophical theories about Parmenides. And, I have
to say in my own discredit that I haven´t confirmed the afirmations of
Kingsley, although I subscribe his vision. I suspect if I were a Pagan I would
prefer Whitmore to Hutton.
So, what
is happening to a pragmatic philosopher educated in the Academic Language to
prefer a not academic text to an academic one?
Well, is
part of the training we receive. There are different resources to understand
the world. One of them is reason, other is the written texts. These are very
well used by academics and I wouldn´t deny it.
But, as a
magician, I have been trained to use imagination to achieve vision and to
follow intuition to get knowledge. Most of the time this is nonsense, specially
at the beginning of the training. You have a lot of visions which express what
you want to get, or the self illusions about yourself. As time pass you are
more prepared to appart those things and try to get the knowledge that
trascends what you, as an individual person, are or need. Those visions give
knowledge, and a kind of knowledge it is impossible to deny. You don´t get to
this point because you are a believer, but because you have checked it in
ways which are very difficult and extensive to explain now. At certain
point you are sure of the epistemological value of this bit of knowledge. I
suspect the deep roots of Witchcraft in the past of humanity is part
of this revelation, so if there is no written proofs of this, then Witches will
wait until it appeares. If an academic study reveals this, then they will be
very proud of academic research.
What is
the problem with my assumption, that If academic world does not understand what
kind of knowledge I am talking about, then you, as academic, will think I am
talking about religion and faith. So, in my opinion, if you get to this conclussion,
you are misunderstanding me.
I wait
this will be clear. Thank you for helping me to clarify my possition.
Ana B.
González.
De:
"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Para: [log in to unmask]
Enviado: viernes 16 de septiembre de 2011 12:40
Asunto: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Academic Writing 2
Thanks
Caroline. Maybe that is something constructive the list members could do from
this? Devise a one or two page document under creative commons to clarify how
we do research and what makes it academic. Then post it everywhere. Send it to
pagan magazines blog it etc and do what we can to make it go viral.
Dave E
Sent
using BlackBerry® from Orange
From: Caroline Tully <[log in to unmask]>
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Society for The Academic Study of Magic
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Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:19:33 +1000
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Subject:
[ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Academic Writing 2
But
then again.. I am not saying that non-academics can’t possibly do
research or write good books.... No. I guess my interest is in what_passes_
for history, or archaeology, amidst the general public and how they often do
not have the knowledge to know how to question such material, or even that they
should.
~Caroline.