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Hi Sam, No, the GD were *not* using the best Egyptology of the day, they had access to it, but, as I explain in my Crowley article in The Pomegranate, they _were ignoring it_. That is interesting about the possible female form of Ra-Hoor-Khuit, but doesn't that deity name really just refer to the attested Egyptian deity Re-Horakhty? ~Caroline. From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sam Webster Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 8:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Are Thelema and Wicca English? While I would not deny that the GD & Crowley reinterpreted Egypt for their own needs, wrt Liber AL I found it very useful to learn Middle Egyptian and then read the text in that light. There are interesting clarifications and surprises then. For instance, we may have a female form of Ra-Hoor-Khuit in the 1st verse of the third chapter, "Ra-Hoor-Khut" having the "-t" feminine ending, as contrasted with the "-it" ending. Similarly, there does not seem to be an actual attestation of "Ra-Hoor-Khuit" Himself in the Egyptian, but it is a possible construction that has a real meaning. So, I think there is more to it than simply a surface read and application, as you seem to indicate in the notion of 'Egyptomaniacal'. The GD itself was using the best Egyptology of the day. 120 years later it looks the poorer for it, but they did the best they could with the available data. For these and kindred reasons I tend to credit Thelema with a significant source in Ancient Egyptian religious culture. )O+ sam On 9/17/11 2:54 AM, Caroline Tully wrote: I would say that Thelema is "Egyptomaniacal", as in Egyptomania. In order to define Egyptomania I refer to a quote from Jean-Marcel Humbert, Curator of the Musee du Louvre in which he is talking about art and architecture, but which I think also applies to the aesthetic of spiritual movments like the Golden Dawn and Thelema: 'Egyptomania is more than a simple mania for Egypt. It is not enough to copy Egyptian forms - artists must "re-create" them in the cauldron of their sensibility and in the context of their times, or must give them an appearance of renewed vitality, a function other than the purpose for which they were originally intended. Egyptomania uses, copies, re-thinks, and re-creates forms derived from ancient Egypt. Nourished by symbolic meanings attributed to ancient Egypt, though un-related to their actual meanings in Antiquity, Egyptomania has survived by offering new readings of these forms passed down through the ages.' ~Caroline. From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ted Hand Sent: Saturday, 17 September 2011 8:02 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Are Thelema and Wicca English? Is the content of Thelema really Egyptian? It seems like much has been lost in translation into English. Beyond the linguistic transcription issues Crowley seems to have adapted the Egyptian material to suit the English cultural forms he was comfortable with. But I don't know if we should be asking if Thelema is an "English Orientalist" religion... On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Caroline Tully <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I think Wicca is only as "English" as its Anglo-Saxon name, and as Gerald Gardner was English. Wicca _itself_ is not "English". Modelled as it is on J.G. Frazer's cycle of the "Dying God", symbolic of a vegetation cycle, as appears in The Golden Bough, Wicca is, if anything Near Eastern, such gods being Adonis and Osiris, among others - loved, lost and regained by goddesses. Even if you look at deity names, Cernunnos (it's Gaulish), Aradia (It's from the Italian, Erodiade - the biblical Herodias), although yes, Andraste is British. Wicca is a multicultural hotchpotch of religious components and is only as "English" as Gardner and the fact that it was formulated in England. I think Thelema is similarly "English" - as English as Wicca - because it was promoted by a famous English occultist. Like Wicca, its content certainly isn't English, it's Egyptian, heavily tinged by Bachofen's Three Ages and Frazer, but I wouldn't say Thelema was Egyptian. I say it's English. ~Caroline. Necropolis Now Blog http://necropolisnow.blogspot.com/