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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Hi, Jim,

I have been having a taxonomic discussion elsewhere about where do we draw the line between late antiquity, early medieval, and renaissance. These lines are not really very clear because much depends upon where as well as when. Patristic as a term refers to a type of writings and is general term that covers a fairly long time period. In terms of time lines, the Patristic period falls in the crack between late antiquity and early medieval. So, saying early Medieval is also correct for Patristic writings. :-)

Oh, I like that: material cause vs. efficient cause... as long as nobody tries to claim X is actually written in the Hebrew. It may be a basis, but it grates when such claims are made.

I work with the Psalms quite a bit and am fascinated by the translations and exegetical treatments. Further, it is surprising how much information about original sources can be gleaned from whether or not a translation follows the oldest complete MT -- which dates to the 9th century. However, translations of Psalm 29 (28), for instance, show that the 9th century MT version was already around in the early Greek and, not too surprisingly, in the Latin. In other words, hundreds of years prior to the oldest known complete Hebrew Bible. (Psalm 29 has a very amusing crux that has bedeviled translators and exegetes ever since. It hinges on a grammatical point that is usually blamed on the 9th-century compilers of the MT. The Greek and Latin translations demonstrate that, no, it wasn't their fault That is just the way it was.)

Then there is Psalm 18, which changes rhythm from a 3/8 to a calypso 5/4 and then changes back again. The Alfredian Psalter follows the Hebrew. This particular Psalm shows that it was translated directly from Hebrew because the Romanum, Gallican, and official Vulgate do not change rhythms. 

Oh, dear, I had better get off my hobby horse.

Cheers,

Rochelle



 

At 00:11 07/08/2011, you wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Rochelle:

Thanks for your comments here, and I hope I won't get myself into (more?) trouble with a response.

I suppose I would disagree with you in one way, namely that the Hebrew Scripture certainly has a role in the origins of the "fall of Lucifer" narrative. In Aristotelian terms, I guess one could say that those Scriptures are its material cause, but certainly not its efficient/authorial cause. This narrative (which I always thought was patristic in origin, not early medieval, but I am happy to be schooled on this) emerged as a result of theological reflection upon the biblical text, and the content of that text certainly had a role to play. We may now call that a mis-read, or a gross misinterpretation (or even an ingenious one), but it does not mean that the text plays no role.

And, this is what fascinates me about the study of medieval exegesis. The sacred page acts as both a guide and a mirror simultaneously.

Jim






On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Rochelle Altman <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Jim,

What V. Kerry took umbrage at was the claim somewhere along the line that the Hebrew Bible is the origin of the fall because of words in Isaiah and it most definitely is not.

What is the origin of the fall are the later translations and, I'm sorry to say, ingenious interpretations of Isaiah's words referring to a King of Babylon and his minions. An earthly king is hardly a fallen angel; hence, it is quite understandable that, as a serious scholar of the MT and Q'uran  V. Kerry was annoyed. The erroneous attribution accounts for his comment on scholarship.

Please also understand that, in the morality tale of Job, Satan is the prosecuting attorney of mankind and not an opponent of god. There quite literally is nowhere for Satan to fall to in the Hebrew tradition. The fall is early medieval in origin.

So, everybody cool down please. 

Rochelle

--

Dr. R. I. S. Altman

At 19:08 06/08/2011, you wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I'm not sure if any claim is being made about right and wrong here. The original question, posed on this medieval religion discussion list, sought possible sources for the Lucifer fall narrative. Â The scriptural loci suggested by various list members are connected to the exegetical tradition of the medieval period. Â This is, after all, the point of this list: to discuss the content and contours of the period within a scholarly framework. We as scholars may not always agree with the theological and hermeneutical assumptions of medieval thinkers, but I think it does a disservice to the field to critique as failing to measure up to the current approaches in biblical scholarship. Â While modern scholarship has certainly made important contributions, I personally would not go so far as to say that the moderns finally found the "right" way to do biblical studies.Â

But neither would I claim that medieval theologians had cornered the market on precision and correctness in their scholarship. Â But it is still to be respected as scholarship and thus should be critically engaged, both its successes and shortcomings. But we all live in more complicated world since there are a number of ways to engage that scholarship: theologically, historically, anthropologically, sociologically, in terms of literary criticism---and the list could go on.Â

I personally reacted to the claim that there was not an ounce of scholarship from a historical perspective, as, I think, was Prof. Vasilev (though I hesitate to speak on his behalf in any strong way).  From a documentary perspective, there are pounds of scholarship concerning the Isaiah passage as a Lucifer-fall narrative.  I agree the more recent scholarship strongly disputes that position using excellent historical and literary methods. As a medievalist, I don't think that claim is very relevant; as a theologian, well, I'm of two minds on this point, but that might be tangential to this thread.  Such are the joys and struggles of engaging a religious tradition that has deep historical and literary roots, and using a variety of methodologies to get as the datum.  We all have to negotiate competing agendas within medieval studies as well as the discrete disciplines we all inhabit, as do our work. Â

And such engagement requires a good dose of diplomacy as well. Â In retrospect, if my own rhetoric offended you, I offer an unconditional apology.Â

Jim




On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:40 AM, V. Kerry Inman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture


Wycliffe lived in the middle ages. He was not a Hebrew scholar by any current standard. Should it come as any surprise that he was wrong?
Or is there some reason I should regard as irreversible the scholarship of a man who lived in the 14th century?
And who cares how the Hebrew Bible was translated into Latin? That does not help us understand Isaiah.

V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Ph. D. Candidate, Arabic and Hebrew
University of Pennsylvania
Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
 

Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 06:11:16 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [M-R] Master John Wycliffe criticized by V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M. Ph. D. Candidate
To: [log in to unmask]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M. Ph. D. Candidate,
Â
I am forced to readdress your remark âthere isis not an ounce of scholarship in thisâ to master John Wycliffe (c.1330-1384) wwho wrote:
(on Lucufer pride, quoting Isaiah, Ysa XIV.13) I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the Stars of God de Lucifer YYsa XIV. 13 dicitur: In celum ascenndam super astra celi exaltatio solum meum. (Summa in theologia.Tractatus tertieus. De civili domino. London, MDCCCXXV, p. I)
Â
It is known that Lucifer and his accomplices were initially in a state of innocence.
Argumentum patet de Lucifer cum suis complicibus apostatis (Ysa XIV.12-15) de primus parentibus in state innocencie. (Ibidem, p. 373).
Â
Prof. Georgi Vasilev


From: V. Kerry Inman <[log in to unmask] >
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] The Origin of the Fall
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Someone along the way mentioned Islam. The Qur'an does not teach that the Devil is a fallen angel, but a jinn. The idea of fallen angels, in Islam, comes from later commentators.
V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Ph. D. Candidate, Arabic and Hebrew
University of Pennsylvania
Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
 
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 18:06:56 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] The Origin of the Fall
To: [log in to unmask]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
What is this supposed to mean?
V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Ph. D. Candidate, Arabic and Hebrew
University of Pennsylvania
Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 16:56:47 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] The Origin of the Fall
To: [log in to unmask]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Here's an ounce of scholarship: Â Haymo of Halberstadt , Â PL 116.791. Â And that was just after a 2 minute search. Â I have no doubt there is more to point to.
Jim

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:40 PM, V. Kerry Inman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

What are we doing here?? Isaiah 14:12-14 is not about Satan!
There is not an ounce of scholarship in this.
V. Kerry Inman, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Ph. D. Candidate, Arabic and Hebrew
University of Pennsylvania
Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
 
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:09:37 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] The Origin of the Fall
To: [log in to unmask]

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Rachel,
the fall of Satan is mentioned in Isaiah 14, 12-14:
12 How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid te nations low!
13 You said in your heart:
"Iwill ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will assembly on the heights of Zaphon;
14 I will ascend to the top of clouds;
I will make meself like the Most High.
15 But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the depths of the Pit.
But in full volume the myth of the fall of Satane and its angels is exposed in the "Secret book"of Bogomils.
According to Bogomils, initially Satanael was directly associated with the Lord, and some dualist versions even refer to him as Godâ€s firstborn. However, he was filled with pride, and he sought to place his power above God, managing to involve one-third of the angels in his revolt. God threw the traitors in the abyss and removed the syllable âelâ , a symbol of divinity, from Satanieanielâs name. Satan lost his s light and his face became âlike molten iron.†Nevertheless, God was merciful and allowed Satan to create his own world that was our EEarth. Thus, Satan became the prince of thhe earthly world as the evil god. He devised and molded man in his likeness from clay, then entered angelsâ souls, once true to God, disguised as the bodies of men and women.
Therefore, Creation was divided between the heavenly, invisible, immortals that belonged to the Good God, and the earthly, visible, humans, controlled by the Evil God. Such is the dualist portrayal of the world. They believed that humans, subject to the power of Satan bodies engulfing the souls of angels from the heavenly creation, constantly strive to leave the devilâs creation to return to th the Good Lord. For them, communication of the Word in their native tongue, the imitation of Christ (imitatio Christi), helped spawn a return to the kingdom of heaven. So, they did not fear the stakes fire allowed these heretttics to escape the sinful kingdom of Satan, the flesh of the bodies he created,  to return to the kingdom of the Good God as free souls.
Some pages of the "Secret book" in Latin, as well in English translated by professor Thomas Butler, are available on:
http://www.bogomilism.eu/Other%20authors/Thomas%20Butler.html
"Heretically"yours:
Georgi Vasilev, Ph.D., D.Litt.
Professor of European and Medieval Studies
Sofia 1784, 119 Tsarigradsko shose bd
Mob. 00359 885/969087
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
www.bogomilism.eu
P.P.
Dear Colleagues, allow me to send you this actual information:
http://22byzantinecongress.org


Free communications 23. Medieval dissent: Bogomils and other religious dissidents on the Balkans







24 August 2011




Georgi Vasilev: Bogomilism an important precursor of the Reformatioon
Thomas Butler: Bogomil Cultural Syncretism
Théofanis L. Drakopoulos : Questions méthodologiques sur le bogomilo-catharisme
Hisatsugu Kusabu: Approaches of New Heresiology and Beyond – the Bogomills, a case study
Радежда ДÑагова: Ð Ð¸Ñ ÑƒÐ²Ð°Ð½Ð¾Ñо Ð±Ð¾Ð³Ð¾Ñ Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð¸Ðµ на богомилиÑе
Erika Lazarova: The Bogomil-Catharâs philoslosophy as a theory of total social criticism
Maja Angelovska-Panova, Andrew P. Roach: Punishment of Heretics: Comparisons and Contrasts between Western Inquisitors and Eastern Churchmen
Dick van Niekerk: Crossroads of Bogomils and Cathars? New light on the âChurch of the Latinsâ in Constantinntinople (12th, 13th century)
Grażyna Szwat-GyÅybowa: Modern adaptationns of the Bogomils dissent: a few thoughts about the Bulgarian case
Asya Bereznyak: A Conversion Gone Awry? A Different Perspective on the Christianisation of Bulgaria and the Rise of Bogomilism
Nadejda Miladinova: Reuses of a Byzantine anthology in the Early Modern Period a case study on the Panoplia Dogmatike of Euthymios Zygabenos
Moderator: Georgi Vasilev
Â



From: Rachel Ernst <[log in to unmask] >
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] The Origin of the Fall
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks everyone for your help! Great suggestions!
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--
----------
James R. Ginther, PhD
Professor of Medieval Theology
& Director,
Center for Digital Theology
Saint Louis University
-------------------------
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Faculty Page:Â Departmental Page
Research Blog: http://digital-editor.blogspot.comÂ
Twitter: DH_editor


"Blessed are the Geeks for they shall encode the Earth"

"...debet esse oratio devota, ne mens sit in foro dum os psallit in choro." - Robert Grosseteste

"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen." -Edward V. Berard


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--
----------
James R. Ginther, PhD
Professor of Medieval Theology
& Director,
Center for Digital Theology
Saint Louis University
-------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Faculty Page:Â Departmental Page
Research Blog: http://digital-editor.blogspot.comÂ
Twitter: DH_editor


"Blessed are the Geeks for they shall encode the Earth"

"...debet esse oratio devota, ne mens sit in foro dum os psallit in choro." - Robert Grosseteste

"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen." -Edward V. Berard


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--
----------
James R. Ginther, PhD
Professor of Medieval Theology
& Director,
Center for Digital Theology
Saint Louis University
-------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Faculty Page: Departmental Page
Research Blog: http://digital-editor.blogspot.com
Twitter: DH_editor
[]

"Blessed are the Geeks for they shall encode the Earth"

"...debet esse oratio devota, ne mens sit in foro dum os psallit in choro." - Robert Grosseteste

"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen." -Edward V. Berard


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