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I'm not sure whether a judgement of the justification for rioting or looting is the major issue at hand. Some of the events of the last few days cannot be 'justified' in any sense, such as the tragic death of three young men in Handsworth Wood just across town from the leafier part of Birmingham where i'm sat typing this at the moment. What is more important is that the reaction in England (academic, political, public) is encouraged to be one that tries to understand the generation of the events of the last fews days and as an earlier poster suggested not jump too early (and probably spuriously) to conclusions. What is sickening me nearly as much as the events themselves is the very predictable mass media and political reaction to the unrest, which will almost certainly hinder any progress towards unpicking the conditions under which what we've seen actually occurs. The media is so obsessed with talk of the 'mob' and the politicians of retribution via the legal system, and a vague need for people to understand they have responsibilities as well as rights, that i doubt there's capacity or will to look for and address the underlying causes of these events. Jonathan. From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vernellia Randall Sent: 11 August 2011 00:08 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: May be of interest Oppression is all relative. In fact, in most of the wealthy countries there is a great wealth disparity. This wealth disparity is a form of oppression. The issue of justification in my mind is not based on comparing yourself to other countries but looking at the disparities and oppression that exist in your own country. I don't know whether the people in England are justified or not in rioting -- but I think that analysis has to be made on a comparison of their position in England compare to other English people. It has to perform largely looking at it from their perspective. On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 6:18 PM, Paulo Nadanovsky <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: I agree that there are instances that braking the law is more moral than not braking the law. But is the amount of oppression and social injustice going on in England currently so worse than in other modern societies as to make disrespect for the law more acceptable in England than in other countries? Or, should this kind of rioting be considered acceptable in almost every country? What are the countries that, if this kind of rioting emerged, disrespect for the law should be considered unacceptable? My point is that the social injustice in modern England does not compare with slavery and other clearly immoral historical situations that justify braking the law in this way. (Note that most people who are being victims of the violence during these riots are not to blame for the rioters fate). On the contrary, as a Brazilian who lived in England for nine years and in Canada for 1.5 year, my impression is that England is one of the countries where this type of law braking is least justified. If respect for the law is not enforced in a modern progressive democratic society such as England, this would be a very bad example for the rest of the world, where people are still far behind England in terms of social justice (including income/resources distribution) and democratic practices. Reducing income (resource) inequality is important to avoid law braking, but it is not enough; modern states must also have strong police and justice systems to avoid law braking. Paulo Paulo Nadanovsky Associate Professor Department of Epidemiology Institute of Social Medicine University of the State of Rio de Janeiro > I wasn't suggesting that what is going on in england was a race riot. I was > suggesting that people who are oppressed will sometime riot rather than take > their oppression in silence. . . Whether race or class or something else. > . > . there is more going on than just no respect for the law. > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Laura > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote: > >> Hang on a bit people in the US, these are not race riots and race is not >> an >> issue in this flare up. Having just spent a wakeful night with local rioting going on round the corner, with white/black and every shade in between - in Oxford!!! - my view is that these young people are hugely angry: angry at two-faced, champagne lifestyle politicians, media moghuls >> and businessmen repeatedly saying 'we are all in this together' when this is >> a blatant lie which is perceptible to even the most poorly educated person. >> They are angry that they the small allowance they had to go to college >> has >> been scrapped, there is no change of going to university with tuition fees >> of £9k a year, that there are no jobs, they have no access to the possessions by which society measures social success and worth, and no hope. >> It isn't right to do what they are doing, and they lack a coherent >> cause or >> voice, but boy, are they angry. >> Best wishes and please keep the personal insults of this list! >> Kind regards >> Laura Davis >> 3 Hillsale Piece >> Oxford >> OX4 4GG >> 01865 236224 >> 07913 424731 >> On 10 Aug 2011, at 14:40, Vernellia Randall wrote: >> You insituated that being a lawyer meant that I should always support the >> law. I tried to explain that I bring a different perspective to the law -- a >> perspective born out of my racial history. If explaining my background and >> how it affects my perspective is playing the race card -- then I take no >> shame - I played the race card and I am proud of it. Because the race card >> was appropriate under the circumstance, >> My experience is the rioting in your own community does bring change -- because white communities in their fear of the overspill will take at least >> temporary action to institute improvement in the black communities. On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Axel Kaehne <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> Maybe you should think a bit harder about what you said. The law breaking >>> they have condoned is directed against oppressive laws, laws that we have >>> come to consider unjust. That distinction ever occurred to you or have you >>> missed freshers' introduction when you studied law? >>> The law breaking in London is directed against some of the poorest communities. >>> And stop playing the race card! It wont help you anymore. The victims of >>> the rioters in London, living in the most deprived areas, are black too. So >>> trashing their communities is not going to improve anything! >>> On 10 Aug 2011, at 14:22, Vernellia Randall wrote: >>> Of course I condone law breaking. My great-grandparents were slave. My father lived during jim crow and was almost killed by a white man for saying >>> hello to a white woman and depsite his college education had to drive taxis >>> and work in factories. I went to segregated schools because of the law. >>> I >>> went to colored bathrooms because of the law. I had to sit in the back of >>> the bus because of the law . . . >>> Yes I condone law breaking as did Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr. Jesus >>> and many others. >>> I stand by my statement -- Breaking the law is not the worst thing -- Accepting oppression quietly is far worst. >>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Axel Kaehne <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> You are a professor in LAW and you condone law breaking??? Geez, you really need to check if your head is screwed on the right way! On 10 Aug 2011, at 13:55, Vernellia Randall wrote: >>>> Rioting is not the worst thing in the world. Accepting oppression quietly >>>> is far worst. >>>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 8:48 AM, Dennis Raphael >>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>wrote: >>>>> *Poverty* is the parent of *revolution* and *crime --* *Aristotle* >>>> -- >>>> *Vernellia R. Randall* >>>> Professor of Law >>>> University of Dayton >>>> *No Democrats! No Republicans! Go Green! >>>> Life in a Post-racial America. Ain't it Grand! >>>> **A rising tide lifts all boats, sinks all rafts and drowns the people >>>> treading water!!* >>>> I am a fan of Reclamation Gallery >>>> http://www.reclamationgallery.com/ >>>> Webinar Video's >>>> http://vimeo.com/profvrandall/albums >>>> Race, Racism and American Law >>>> Http://academic.udayton.edu/race/ <http://academic.udayton.edu/race/> >>>> Dr Axel Kaehne >>>> Welsh Centre for Learning Disabilities >>>> School of Medicine >>>> Heath Park >>>> Cardiff >>>> CF14 4XN >>>> Phone 029 20 687 212 >>>> Fax 029 20 687 100 >>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> http://medicine.cf.ac.uk/en/person/mr-axel-kaehne/ >>> -- >>> *Vernellia R. Randall* >>> Professor of Law >>> University of Dayton >>> *No Democrats! No Republicans! Go Green! >>> Life in a Post-racial America. Ain't it Grand! >>> **A rising tide lifts all boats, sinks all rafts and drowns the people treading water!!* >>> I am a fan of Reclamation Gallery >>> http://www.reclamationgallery.com/ >>> Webinar Video's >>> http://vimeo.com/profvrandall/albums >>> Race, Racism and American Law >>> Http://academic.udayton.edu/race/ <http://academic.udayton.edu/race/> >>> Dr Axel Kaehne >>> Welsh Centre for Learning Disabilities >>> School of Medicine >>> Heath Park >>> Cardiff >>> CF14 4XN >>> Phone 029 20 687 212 >>> Fax 029 20 687 100 >>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> http://medicine.cf.ac.uk/en/person/mr-axel-kaehne/ >> -- >> *Vernellia R. Randall* >> Professor of Law >> University of Dayton >> *No Democrats! No Republicans! Go Green! >> Life in a Post-racial America. Ain't it Grand! >> **A rising tide lifts all boats, sinks all rafts and drowns the people treading water!!* >> I am a fan of Reclamation Gallery >> http://www.reclamationgallery.com/ >> Webinar Video's >> http://vimeo.com/profvrandall/albums >> Race, Racism and American Law >> Http://academic.udayton.edu/race/ <http://academic.udayton.edu/race/> > > > -- > *Vernellia R. Randall* > Professor of Law > University of Dayton > > *No Democrats! No Republicans! Go Green! > Life in a Post-racial America. Ain't it Grand! > **A rising tide lifts all boats, sinks all rafts and drowns the people treading water!!* > I am a fan of Reclamation Gallery > http://www.reclamationgallery.com/ > > Webinar Video's > http://vimeo.com/profvrandall/albums > > Race, Racism and American Law > Http://academic.udayton.edu/race/ > -- Vernellia R. Randall Professor of Law University of Dayton No Democrats! No Republicans! Go Green! Life in a Post-racial America. Ain't it Grand! A rising tide lifts all boats, sinks all rafts and drowns the people treading water!! I am a fan of Reclamation Gallery http://www.reclamationgallery.com/ Webinar Video's http://vimeo.com/profvrandall/albums Race, Racism and American Law Http://academic.udayton.edu/race/