Hi All
I think it is time for a song.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iTeDl_Wug>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iTeDl_Wug
A song, indeed, about measuring.
I present it as an accompanier to our many words about who we are.
It is a little cheesey but all the better for making balance ...
Happy Thursday!
Mary
Mary Smail
Director,
Sesame Institute for Drama and Movement Therapy
www.sesame-institute.org
_____
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jo kirkpatrick
Sent: 28 July 2011 01:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Identity - but what about the human spirit?
Hi Alec, Sue, Lydia, Graham, and all
I apologise for dragging you all back in time but I have to say what
excellent points you all make. I wish I had been able to answer them when
they were posted. But I had to avoid the forum and my email inboxes until my
assignment was finished and there are just under 3 weeks until the next is
due. This next one is a final TMA of the module so no extensions are allowed
[which is rather terrifying]. I have done most of the reading and the
revision tables ready for October, so I shouldn't need to vanish for too
long between the 10th and 16th of August.
Yes you are right Lydia, writing your own life narrative for publication can
be fraught with issues; and as well as the ethical implications regarding
other actors, there might also be legal implications. For example, should
you use your own name? Even if you have nothing to be embarrassed about, and
your family and friends are supportive, other people such as teachers,
doctors, employers etc., might disagree with your version or the stance you
take. If somebody was unhappy about your perceptions of their past behaviour
they might threaten to sue you. I heard about a 'friend of a friend', who
really upset someone. They come round on a warm summer night and tried to
set fire to her net curtains through an open living room window. When the
curtains wouldn't burn because they were flame-proof they slashed her car
tyres instead, but it could just as easily have been a petrol bomb.
So we have no core identity, we are only what we have done, created, made,
built, said or written. The shared memories that we construct and leave in
the minds of others are the only evidence of our contested existences. We
are nothing elsee but shadows cast on the ground by wild geese as Graham
said:
"a convenient fiction and an ego-sustaining illusion".
We are not who we think we are. Or as Lydia says we are not even who others
think we are!
But talking about Bhudism, what about the spirit? I have had about 3
experiences of seeing and hearing first hand evidence of the existence of
this that I personally can't argue with. I was the only one who noticed [saw
or heard] apart from the last one that involved my 2 year old daughter [now
27]. She had no memory of it a few weeks later. I was very relieved about
that [no toddler should be burdened with terrifying and tragic memories of
her last hours and her own death in a previous life] and I was stone cold
sober.
I won't relate them because I wouldn't believe me, I don't expect anybody
else to. As a scientist I would want to back up any claims I make with
evidence that I do not have. These 3 separate events are completely
inexplicable but I live in hope that one or two might be explained one day.
Perhaps I will find answers through neurology or psychology, as they may be
some sort of defence mechanism. The third never will be explained - until I
die and I might find out what happens for myself.
A final wistful thought: I wonder if I could ever learn to be as fluent in
QualtSpeak as Alec? The phrase about 'old dogs and new tricks' comes to mind
but then again, I have only had about a year of qualt training compared to 7
years of quant. 10 years ago I use to wonder if I would ever be able to
master stats; and then it was learning to use SPSS, and I have done both so
you never know. Perhaps Rossetta Stone will add it to their catalogue!
Meanwhile I will keep reading the PDFs and the messages in here. It's very
nice to be back - I have missed you all, but knowing I was missing out on
all the fun did make sure I got 02 done fast!
Best wishes Jo
My phone number is:
02082991961
_____
From: Lydia Turner <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, 18 July, 2011 14:47:29
Subject: Re: Identity - when all the frosting is gone: who am I?
Dear all
Its interesting that I have opened an email to contribute to this thread on
three occasions before this and then changed my mind about what I want to
say as my thinking keeps moving on. I agree with Graham in the 'wild
goosechaseness' of research. Maybe we are who we think we are captured at
that nano second from the view that we are taking at that point just before
it moves, through the very act of trying to capture it if nothing else, and
then if we think of ourselves relationally, we are not only not who we think
we are, but we are not who others think we are too, although we might grasp
and approximation at times of ourselves and others.
I wonder if we can think about the practicalities of this discussion in
terms of research before I at least fall into a pit of transience and
nothingness (which can spiral to pointlessness and hopelessness in it all!).
If we are to do research, which involves people; ourselves and possibly
others, we need to pin something down, even if its only a snap short of a
representation of ourselves at that moment, taken from one angle that we are
working with, or many snapshots at many moments.
I wonder (and I appreciate that this is going off on a slightly different
tangent but still in keeping with Alec's email I think), going back to the
representation of ourselves and others, whether, when we are representing
ourselves or being represented by others, we need to think about the impact
(relational ethics) of writing about ourselves on those around us. We could
argue that we "have a right" to tell our stories and that others can make of
them what they will, but what about those who know us, or who care about us.
What if I were to share a story about my a difficult break up with an
ex-partner without asking him to give me permission? Or if I ask him and if
he doesn't give it, can I not write it? And if I do write it, what about my
kids, should I ask them if its ok, its their life too, and my current
partner, should he have to deal with my past distress out there in print,
will it affect our relationship? I wonder if we should be thinking about
these things, because whether we are or are not able to pin down what/who we
are, we do it nevertheless, in narrative, autoethnographic and performative
forms of research, or in contributions to books such as yours and Fran's
recent one Alec.
I wonder if in failing to pin down what we mean by who we are (or not), and
in our many attempts to represent ourselves somehow through research, we end
up by acknowledging the relatedness of our beings but forget, or at least
might not consider the impact of our writing/performance on the 'others' to
whom we are 'related'?
Just some meanderings on a rainy afternoon
Best wishes
Lydia
_____
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 08:38:34 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Identity - when all the frosting is gone: who am I?
To: [log in to unmask]
Dear Alec and all
In joining the debate I will share my thoughts about the constructed self
and phenomenology. I have never felt comfortable with Husserlian
'transcendental' ideas regarding stable "essences" of phenomena, independent
of the observer. The reality of 'individuals' is based upon their perceived
experience, influenced in turn by culture, education, etc. This is the
story of the 'self', which is continuously being shaped, critiqued and
rewritten. Interpretive phenomenology, with its acceptance of the person
being situated historically and culturally, and experiencing being and
becoming, seems more compatible with a dialogic and relational research
approach.
Nevertheless, as you point out Alec, the researcher still adopts the role of
seeking and imposing meaning on the data generated. The themes thus
developed can assume undue significance and reification. Gadamerian
phenomenology, with its emphasis on the 'fusion of horizons' between
researcher and participant, attempts to close the gap between individuals,
but the very process of research invests power in the researcher and can
subtly maintain separation.
Returning to my earlier points . if the self is a constructed story we tell
ourselves, then the very activity of research is a 'wild goose chase' .
hunting a phantom. There is no 'other' . just experience (thoughts,
feelings, sensations) arising in awareness. The mirage of the individual is
a convincing dream, from which few wake up. It's possible to see through
the illusory subject-object divide, and to realise that 'we' are the sole
Subject, enjoying (or not) the dream of separation. The activity called
research may appear as part of the story, but nobody is doing it. We can
write all we like about 'persons' (via dialogic, relational or
post-structuralist perspectives), but shouldn't forget that the self is "a
convenient fiction and an ego-sustaining illusion".
We are not who we think we are.
Graham
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: 18 July 2011 08:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Identity - when all the frosting is gone: who am I?
Dear Jo, and all,
Further to our dialogue about this, I've been thinking more about the 'self'
strand with my academic head on, in relation to its ontological and
epistemological status. What is 'the self' and how do we know it? So far,
we've talked about this issue in performative terms, and as a convenient
fiction and an ego-sustaining illusion. I want to talk more about another
dimension which is concerning me in relation to my current research: the
self as dialogic, as relational. It's difficult for me to accept the
humanistic, or Enlightenment/Romantic line of the self as ontologically
prior to and independent of its inscription within culture, if culture is
accepted in Geertz's terms as the 'webs of significance' (webs of meaning)
produced by human relationships. For me the lone self just doesn't work. We
are born into dialogue, a point championed by Bakhtin, and by Gergen and
Frank who draw on Bakhtin in dialogic narrative inquiry and social
constructionism respectively. This means that my words are never just 'my
words'. To paraphrase Bakhtin, a person never coincides with her or himself.
We carry around loads of voices, which we more or less accept or reject
(and Mead made complementary points).
Now, if this argument is accepted it has implications for research, and for
relational ethics and aesthetics in research and more generally. We never
find out about the researched self, as lone self, independent from her or
his inscription within relationships, 'cause there aint no such beastie.
This makes research (and relational practices more generally, including
therapeutics and everyday life) which is predicated on some inner, essential
self a bit problematic (and I wonder what you think about this Graham, in
relation to your interest in phenomenology? And do you see any tensions
between the Buddhist view of 'self' and the Husserlian essentialist line?).
Postructuralism, emerging from the representation crisis in the human
sciences, captures the project of the dialogic self. From a
poststructuralist perspective, dialogue doesn't mirror human experience. It
creates it, while constantly deferring and transforming that which is being
described. So, meaning, and identity, are slippery; never quite there, but
never quite not there, and always contextual and tied into power and
politics.
This has implications for representational practices in narrative research.
As autoethnographer, the best I can ever do is offer highly reflexive,
politically charged and contestable representations of my 'reality
fragments'. These need to be judged on their own terms rather than with
reference to some assumed external and fixed reality reference point. In
this regard, there are obvious issues for representational and audience
ethics, as well as problematising the kind of qualitative research
evaluative criteria which is based on external standards (and I wonder where
your research stands, Lydia, in relation to Lather's use of (drawing
onDeleuze and Guattari's work) rhizomatic legitemation?).
As narrative researcher (will be doing research on the back of Our
Encounters with Madness, based on the text, individual chapters, and
interviews with individuals about the experience of writing their chapters),
I need to represent people's texts and interviews in a dialogic way, and in
a way that respects narrative selves as open, relational and 'unfinalisable'
(Bakhtin again). This contrasts with much social science and qualitative
research that exhausts identity and simultaneously fractures it by reducing
participants to de-contextualised meaning units to back up researcher
themes.
And I should try to manage my relationships with others outside of research
similarly, but that's another story and I think that's probably enough for
now.
Alec
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jo kirkpatrick
Sent: 15 July 2011 14:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Identity - when all the frosting is gone: who am I?
And I thought it was such a simple question but once I took away name rank
and serial number there wasn't much if anything left at all. I went online
and it seems that this is actually a very old question, the ancients Greeks
couldn't answer it and nobody has managed it since although in the 18th
century Existentialist Philosophers threw up some theories. We had all
better make certain that this group [and others we belong to] doesn't
disintegrate because the groups to which we belong might be the only things
holding our identities together. Anyway, it cheered up my depressed
participant when I told him that none of us could answer the 'who are you'
question. It further confirms my suspicion that we are what we do. It also
seems that what/who we are doesn't matter, it is only what we do that
counts. We are known, recognised and measured by what we have done, or at
least by what people can see that we have done.
Best wishes Jo
_____
From: Suzanne Hacking <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 15 July, 2011 1:34:15
Subject: Re: Identity - when all the frosting is gone: who am I?
I did see this and I have been lurking but I thought I think about it for a
bit. I don't think it's an easy question, 'who are you' at all and it
suggests something about identity but also something about context, you
can't be the you without the who - the who can't exist if unique - one can't
be distinguished if one is alone, it's just a question of a description.
Now, to complicate it, you suggest take away the context of the CV and
frosting but that also abstracts you from the situation and you replace it
in your narrative with another situation (although you do a bit of both
actually), who's to say what's more relevant? I can see that you're trying
to show a human side, with a life away from the posturing of academics
because that side doesn't tell you a lot. Take away the context altogether
and what we are is fairly common to all of us, if we are there at all. I've
had this feeling for a while that we are but points of light shining in the
darkness, being connected to each other by fragile filaments, surrounded by
blackness, closer to some points than others. From a distance we could look
like some shining star and from close up so far apart and lonely. That's if
we're here at all and it's not all within our own minds. I've often thought
about the question of whether we exist, the postulation, that we think
therefore we am is not at all clear, we could be very different than we
think we am.
So my point is that because I went off on the other track about the common
stuff I didn't answer the who bit, or the you bit. I might come back on
this. Sue.
>>> jo kirkpatrick 14/07/11 11:45 PM >>>
Hi Alec, Graham and all Narrative Inquirers [should that be enquirers?]
Well the two attempts I have had so far from two really clever people read
like a list of qualifications and accomplishments. In fact they are mini
CVs, which is the opposite of what I wanted. I want to know who people
really are, apart from the CV entries and without the frosting of their
Higher Educations. Here is my answer as promised I have done my best to be
honest, but I still could not separate identity from a context, perhaps one
of you can do better. Alec's autoethnography comes the closest to what I
mean. Who would think this would be so hard?
So who am I? [The short verion.]
I am Jo (Marjorie) Kirkpatrick BA BSc academic, scientist and all round
smart cookie [and yes a bit of a know-all at times]! Nobody calls me
anything but Jo, I think I am a slightly more laid back version, or am I, M.
Rigg property owner, ex-business woman, ex-antique dealer, ex-wife and
mother! For 15 minutes, once a month; and for 10 minutes every Tuesday I am
a disabled, patient, a raspberry ripple, a service user/researcher observer
participant collecting my pain medication. All of these and none of these
are who I am really, as these all relate to different parts of my identity
in a particular context.
Who am I when I am alone, sitting by a pond at dusk watching dragon flies,
listening to their clattering wings, watching the tadpoles and fish I am at
my happiest. Sitting on a beach listening to the sea and watching the waves
hitting the shore, I feel at peace. Crawling around on the ground hunting
for fossils, as I peer into the scene from millions of years ago I feel I
know my place as part of the universe and for a while I am very happy with
my own company. When I am alone in the dark I ask God to help me to find
more strength and forgive myself and He always does. When I phone my bank
and pay my bills I realise I am an important link in the National economy.
When my daughter says 'Love you Mum' as she says goodbye; or when 3 year old
Carmel first sees me and her face lights up as she squeals "Grandma's here!"
and runs to give me a cuddle. It is then that I know I am a small but much
loved, important and needed part of the life-cycle of the human race.
Who am I when I meet new people? An academic, confident, clever and knowing?
A scientist who can amaze people and fill them with awe? But these
identities are carefully constructed, the real me is just a human being who
is rather shy but tries to be friendly and hopes others will try to be
friendly too. I can see the humour in any situation and I am very good at
laughing at myself. But all these identities still relate to the contexts
and social interactions so perhaps the philosophers are right. They say that
our individual 'self' as a solitary existence is an illusion, and we are
just the shadows produced by the contexts.
Can you do any better?
Best wishes Jo
_____
From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
To: jo kirkpatrick <[log in to unmask]>;
"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thu, 14 July, 2011 8:58:58
Subject: RE: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
"Who am I?" . the most important question that can be asked! Any answer
that arises in the mind is incorrect . just another concept. When the mind
falls silent ... the answer is there.
Graham
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jo kirkpatrick
Sent: 14 July 2011 03:20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
As a sort of pilot come practise for my course, I asked a fellow student, to
do me an emailed BNIM type interview but I got the wording slightly wrong
asking:
who are you? She wrote back to ask what I meant and rather glibly I replied
that I wanted who she is when all the other identities like mum, wife,
student etc have been removed and she is alone? I realised after I sent it
that this is one heck of a difficult question, so I will be interested to
see what one of the smartest people I know makes of it. I would also be
fascinated to know what some of the other smart people I know make of it,
such as the members of this group.
Where is my answer I hear somebody muttering, OK I will do one too.
Best wishes Jo
_____
From: Alec Grant <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 8:01:49
Subject: Re: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
Hi everyone,
And thanks for your very thoughtful comments, Graham and Lydia. Actuyally,
the title of the article, 'Whose story is it?' was meant to be ironic, in
that stories, as you rightly imply Graham, don't really belong to anyone. I
was coming at this from a poststructural angle - that storied identities are
contextually inscribed within power and are contested and contestable,
although often presented as 'the real'.
I go along with the notion of self and mind as convenient fictions, and with
self as verb. We do self, in a performative sense. And in a relational
sense: this is who you are; this is who I am. I agree with you Graham. I
think Eastern philosophical and personal ethical practices are incredibly
powerful. In this regard I don't agree with you, Lydia, that loss of self
signals being left with nothing. Quite the opposite, although this is an
understandable fear that people have.
However, meanwhile, there is a lot of relational , dialogic and narrative
violence conducted day by day, in the name of common sense business as usual
in the moral order. That was one of the things my article was about.
And I think the time- and place-boundedness of situated practices have a
great deal of influence on narrated and performed identities. I first
courted Buddhism after a fashion in the early 1970s, via Alan Watts. I was
still in the RAF and home on leave. I told my parents who were horrified by
this news, which was about as welcome as my paisley patterned underpants.
Now, had I been born and brought up in Hampstead ....???
Best,
Alec
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lydia Turner
Sent: 12 July 2011 20:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
Hello all
I thought I would comment on Graham's comment below which really struck me
Is it possible that the 'self' is a verb, and not a 'noun'? We are busy
'selfing' ourselves into existence, assuming that we are 'thinkers', when
actually only thinking is happening ... 'rememberers', when only remembering
is happening. It's hard work ... constructing and maintaining a self ...
but could it be simply a work of fiction?
I guess this follows on well with the idea of mindfulness and things only
being here and now. The idea of transience might be quite a scary one if we
start to apply it to ourselves. If we don't assert our existence then is
there a danger that we are nothing, we are just a mind existing without a
'being' around that mind, or maybe to pinch from deleuze and guattari, "a
body without organs", something formed and substantive but only in the
moment, before it then moves on. Maybe this is quite scary. We might use 'I'
and 'me' or 'my' to give ourselves substance and definition. Or if we see
ourselves as relational, rather than singular, we might say 'we', which may
acknowledge others in our 'being' but still nonetheless is a way of defining
us.
Lydia
_____
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:41:02 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
To: [log in to unmask]
Hi Alec and other members
Thanks for sending me your draft article for TQR. I enjoyed reading it very
much and it certainly deserves publication.
I have a few comments to make, from a philosophical rather than an academic
perspective. Perhaps they will stimulate some debate?
Your title "Whose story is it?" assumes that a story has to belong to
someone ... that there has to be a person to own it. Could it be that the
notion of separate individuals is a complete illusion? The mind (aka 'ego')
creates stories throughout life in order to establish and develop an
identity and series of roles. Along with these manufactured identities comes
memories, opinions, preferences, 'personality' ... the whole elaborate
structure of self and constructed reality, which is maintained through
social consensus and the ego's need for security.
Is it possible that the 'self' is a verb, and not a 'noun'? We are busy
'selfing' ourselves into existence, assuming that we are 'thinkers', when
actually only thinking is happening ... 'rememberers', when only remembering
is happening. It's hard work ... constructing and maintaining a self ...
but could it be simply a work of fiction?
Without a story ... who are we?
Naturally, the ego will indignantly deny the idea that the 'person' does not
exist. It will fight furiously to preserve the idea of 'me'. So narratives
are produced, preferred identities are developed, and social norms and
realities constructed. Autoethnography is an approach which provides the
opportunity to explore the nature and reality of our assumed identities,
rather than encourage the construction of yet more illusory stories.
It might be asked that if we see through the fictition of the 'person', what
is left ? The answer is nothing ... no-thing ... which also means there's
space for everything!
What do other 'persons' think?!
Warm regards
'Graham'
_____
From: Narrative Inquiry where social science meets art
[[log in to unmask]] on behalf of [log in to unmask]
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 11 July 2011 10:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: FW: welcome to my list: Narrative Inquiry where social science
meets art
Dear new members,
(apologies to those of you who may have received this message more than
once)
Welcome to my new list. I should say a little about myself; I am very
interested in performance and narrative, and the interface between science
and art/humanities, working across autoethnography and dialogical narrative
analysis.
I started this list because of a need to connect more with like minded
people. this list is warranted because, at present, the two others in this
area - Performative Social Science (PSS) and Narrative Health Research -
cater for small and restricted user groups. PSS is not a discussion list as
such and is used to showcase performative events. Narrative Health Research
is, by definition, restricted to health research.
I envision this cross disciplinary list as a resource for scholars in the
area of narrative inquiry broadly who are interested in the aesthetics of
their approaches. This cross-fertilisation of social and human science with
art and humanities may include, for example, autoethnographers, performance
and experimental ethnographers, cultural and communication scholars with an
interest in performance, narrative and dialogic narrative researchers, those
using the arts in social science enquiry, to name but a few.
Just to get the ball rolling I've attached an autoethnographic piece which
is under consideration for publication. Any feedback would be most
appreciated.
I look forward to stimulating discussion and network building.
best,
Alec
Dr Alec Grant
School of Nursing and Midwifery (SNM)
University of Brighton
Robert Dodd Building (RD105)
49 Darley Road
Eastbourne BN20 7UR
email: [log in to unmask]
phone: 01273-643100
mobile: 07813-332537
http://www.brighton.ac.uk/snm/contact/details.php?uid=ad84
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