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Sorry Ken, I guess I wasn't sufficiently clear. I meant to say that octopi & dogs have precursor abilities (planning, problem solving, etc) to designing. Octopi are quite ancient; this suggests that some of those precursor abilities have been built-in for a *very* long time. I can accept that perhaps the difference between them and us is more one of quantity than quality, but if it's a matter of quantity, it is a vast one. I'm a "dog person" too, and I've often been amazed at the behaviours of our dogs, but I've never recognized in them the kind of reflection that I recognize every day in people. Nor am I aware of any research that suggests *any* animal has the reflective abilities of humans to the degree we exhibit it. Cheers. Fil On 19 June 2011 18:34, Ken Friedman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear Fil, > > Don't know any octopi, but I'll accept the fact that dogs don't think > or reflect as we do. They're dogs, and a natural consequence of this > is that they have different bodies, different mental states, and > different hermeneutical horizons. They certainly don't read Simon. > > While I agree that dogs cannot therefore reflect as they do, I would > not go so far as to say they don't reflect. I don't claim that they do, > either. As a result, I wouldn't be prepared to say that they design > in Simon's sense, and I would not claim that dogs are reflective > practitioners. > > Like most designers -- and engineers -- dogs do like to get paid, > and clever dogs often figure out how. > > Yours, > > Ken > > > Filippo A. Salustri wrote: > > --snip-- > > I think being able to design (at least in Simon's sense) is something > we evolved to do. There's examples of octopi opening jars and > uncorking bottles to get at food. > > --snip-- > > ... (planning, problem solving, etc). > > I think the feature that most distinguishes humans is that we *know* > we're designing. I don't think animals like octopi & dogs reflect as > we do. > > --snip-- > -- \V/_ Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: [log in to unmask] http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/