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Jamie I'm not 'looking at the social origins of poets and critics'. The problem isn't simply prejudice either, it's the inflation of class-specific values into 'universals'. The A.C.E report too *seems* to be both protesting a 'value-free' approach while presenting something that is 'loaded'. I still haven't had time to absorb it fully, I have a decorater's ladder over my head as I write :) , but those sections I have looked at with some care have agitated a little flutter or two (I smile again, though perhaps with a hint of a forced grin). On 30 May 2011 02:44, Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Rather than looking at the social origins of poets and critics it would > help to consider what they write, otherwise we'd be stuck at the stage of > dismissing Orwell because he went to Eton. Prejudice is not the exclusive > property nor a defining feature of the middle class - used in this way the > term merely becomes a blurred category for everything that is insidious and > oppressive, and doesn't so much challenge a class system, that undoubtedly > exists, as comfortably reconfirm it. > Is the performance poetry scene in Britain "resoundingly middle class"? > I haven't a clue, and I'm not at all sure what that judgement would > ultimately mean. Does the literary establishment really seem to 'validate' " > the cliched performance poem"? I'm not even convinced that the present > British mainstream has such decisively "anti-modernist tendencies". > Class surely has to concern questions of power, economic and social. > Most poets have precious little of either, but can certainly allign > themselves - or do the opposite - in relation to the powers that be. > The Arts Council has a certain amount of power to dispose of funds, to > support or not support publishers, festivals, organizations etc. It seems to > me a rather secondary question as to whether the compilers of the report are > all middle class, as they may well be, but it matters how well they > understand the art in question and how that understanding informs the > decisions they make. > Best, > Jamie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Sent:* Sunday, May 29, 2011 2:24 PM > *Subject:* Re: Arts Council report on Contemporary Poetry > > Dave, > > Like Jamie I don't quite understand what you mean by 'the discussion of it > (poetry)' with regard to the class thing. Both you and me have got ourselves > pounced on on this list in the past for bringing the class question into > things, but in this particular case I don't quite see what your point is. Of > course poetry is dominated by what we used to call the middle classes - the > majority of poets have middle class backgrounds, but at least there is a > minority of us who come originally from working class backgrounds. I doubt > though if we could say the same about publishers and critics. But this is no > different to any other walk of artistic life, which in turn is no different > to any other walk of professional life etc. However, your statement 'English > poetry encodes social exclusion' is..... is what?.... strange?.....OTT? Do > you mean all of it? And do you mean the poetry itself or the means of its > creation and dissemination and validation etc.? The latter I would agree. > The former needs explanation. > > You might recall that some time ago on this list I tried to argue about the > strange mix of working class and middle class attitudes that lie behind the > anti-modernist tendencies of the British mainstream, things which have given > rise to the literary establishment's seeming validation of the cliched > performance poem along with a corresponding devaluing of the innovative etc. > If I recall properly I think I talked quite a bit about the function of > inverted snobbery in all this - but it gets very complicated - I don't think > my brain is up to it these days. > > Cheers > > Tim A. > > On 29 May 2011, at 08:26, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > I often recall E.M.Forster's witticism about Meredith's novels being 'the > Home Counties posing as the Universe'. More or less just as often (I have no > spurious statistics to offer) I find myself feeling something similar about > modern British poetry AND discussions about it, although rather than the > Home Counties it is rather the voice of a class which can still probably be > called middle but doesn't think of itself as such. Indeed instead of > aspiring to croquet and sherry on the lawn it might well consider itself > 'progressive', and rather than having designs of ownership on the Universe > it merely, modestly, covetously, desires to be its *arbiter*. I am afraid > too it is just as much a feminine as a masculine voice. > It is difficult. I love poetry in English. But entwined in it like a downed > constellation, an Ophiucus perhaps, is a meanness of spirit and exclusion, > from Chaucer's verray parfit gentil through Shakespeare and that churl death > to Duffy and a mean time all round, and the resoundingly middle-class > performance poetry scene, it's there. English poetry encodes social > exclusion, and I find myself all too literally following a Biblical > injunction and loving mine enemy. That loves me not. > Enough of that. It sounds *merely* personal. I don't know if Mark Weiss is > still following this list but he has a lot of observations of how in the USA > the validation by creative writing degree growth is something akin to a > certificate of middle-class-dom. Validation, in effect, if I may use that > word. > A particular memory fuzzily comes to mind: last year or the year before > East Midlands Arts advertised for *a relationship manager *(they really > did use that phrase)*. *At 35 grand a year. A* *spokesman explained it was > for someone to 'keep the region's writers in shape'.* > * > -- > David Joseph Bircumshaw > Website and A Chide's Alphabet > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw > twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave > blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ > > > -- David Joseph Bircumshaw Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/