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"Could you kindly give a citation for the economist, or economists, using the term "dismal science", because there are many economists, probably most in my experience, who are not so self-deprecating about their chosen profession?" FT.com / Search http://search.ft.com/search?queryText=%22dismal+science%22 <http://search.ft.com/search?queryText=%22dismal+science%22&ftsearchType=typ e_news> &ftsearchType=type_news MK From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alan Rogerson Sent: 02 March 2011 11:38 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Plagiarism: pressure mounts, minister resigns... Dear Michael, My happiness or otherwise is hardly relevant, but I trust all of us feel better when we get the facts right (in all details), something fundamental to the scientific method I believe? Also it is not my use of "science" that is the issue here, but the use of it eg in German Universities, and as it happens also in much of Europe, the USA, and in many other parts of the world (including the UK, see below!). This use of "scientific" was already discussed in this thread. I will forward to you privately the discussion which you appear to have missed. The recent post from Eleanor makes a similar point, that the connotation (a la Wittgenstein) of the word " Wissenschaft" however we wish to render it in English, is not the same as that for our word "Science", but even in English we have the same more general use when we say quite naturally "The Science of...bee keeping, cooking, etc etc ..." which contrasts with "The Art of...." , here the usage clearly evokes the "scientific method" characteristic of the "Natural Sciences", but not only! The image of the whole UK scientific community yawning loudly is a vivid one, but can you tell us where is the evidence for it? If you look at the links and posts you will see academics in the UK who were certainly not yawning, nor foaming at the mouth, some of whose names also appear on the letter to Merkel. Public engagement on this issue through the media has been enormous, have a look at the BBC and associated sites, and the central issue has been a Ph.D thesis. It is not often that the academic world gets into the news in such a way, and surely it has been both a positive and encouraging fact that tens of thousands of people, academics and others, have protested in defence of integrity and honest hard work? As Stephan said, we look forward to your comments on this after you have read the various links and posts, and especially the letter to Merkel. Could you kindly give a citation for the economist, or economists, using the term "dismal science", because there are many economists, probably most in my experience, who are not so self-deprecating about their chosen profession? Please also do a quick Google check on "Science of Economics" and "Science of Law", the results will obviously surprise you! Alan On 01/03/2011 23:25, Michael Kenward wrote: Would you be happier if I said "I can see little connection between the behaviour of a "bent" German law graduate and the ethics of science PhDs"? You are, of course, free to use "science" in any context that you like. Me, I am of the school that thinks it dodgy to use the label "political science". Something to do with what us old fogeys refer to as "the scientific method". This is why I doubt the relevance of much of this to any discussion of public engagement with science. And why I can see why the scientific community in the UK yawns loudly when asked why it doesn't foam at the mouth about plagiarism by a German politician. Our own MPs have their ways of entertaining us all. At least economists recognise their status when they acknowledge the term "dismal science". Thankfully, I can't recall anyone trying to describe the law as a science. MK ********************************************************************** Further information about the psci-com discussion list, including list archive, can be found at the list web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html You may also change your settings and subscribe/unsubscribe to psci-com from the web site. Psci-com is part of the National Academic Mailing List Service, known as 'JISCMail'. It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptible Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. 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It adheres to the JISCMail Acceptible Use Policy: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/acceptableuse.html and to the JISCMail guidelines for etiquette: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/etiquette.html Email commands: 1. To suspend yourself from the list, whilst on leave, for example, send an email to mailto:[log in to unmask] with the following message: set psci-com nomail -- [include hyphens] 2. To resume email from the list, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: set psci-com mail -- [include hyphens] 3. To leave psci-com, send an email to [log in to unmask] with the message: leave psci-com -- [include hyphens] Please allow up to 24 hours for these commands to activate. Remember that you will need to send commands using the same email address that you used to register on psci-com. To contact the Psci-com list owner, please send an email to: [log in to unmask] **********************************************************************