Further to this, I would then suggest that sites which have passed the fairly rigorous requirements of the NE SHINE project criteria would qualify for local listing.

Regards

Nick Crank
Senior Archaeological Officer
T: 01908 254259

[log in to unmask]
http://www.milton-keynes.gov.uk/archaeology

Discover Milton Keynes HER: www.HeritageGateway.org.uk Explore MKiHeritage Theme: www.MKiObservatory.org.uk

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 15 March 2011 11:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?

Mike

Agreed. But in order to include an archaeological monument in a local list especially one that is below ground, you would need to have sufficient evidence about to have a good idea of its probable extent.

Chris

>>> Mike Shaw <[log in to unmask]> 15/03/2011 10:56 >>>

Local lists can include all sorts of sites, including buried archaeological deposits, if a council wishes them to do so. Surely the main point about them is that any site on the local list has been through a scrutiny process and has been placed on the list with approval from the council. As such there is no problem with a local list site being considered a heritage asset. The same presumably does not apply to all sites on the HER (a question I asked at the HER Forum at Chester).

Regards,

Mike

Mike Shaw

City Archaeologist

Wolverhampton City Council

Civic Centre

Wolverhampton

WV1 1RP

e-mail [log in to unmask]

Tel: 01902 555493

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 15 March 2011 10:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?

Hi Nick,

I think you've failed to consider the difference between a Local List and an HER.

As someone else has pointed out Local Lists arose out of all those buildings that were grade 3 listed prior to the lists being revamped in the 1970s(?) after which grade 3 buildings were no longer regarded as being of sufficient Architectural or Historic Interest to justify their being designated nationally. Some planning authorities did not wish to abandon all protection on these buildings to chose to maintain a local list of these buildings. Other planning authorities stated to maintain a local list at a later date, and EH is now suggesting that all planning authorities consider doing the same.

-The crucial thing about all the buildings/structures on a local list is that they are (in theory at least) upstanding things that could easily be recognised and afforded some kind protection. All of which can be regarded in planning terms as being a constraint and preserving in their present condition in some form or other.

As we are all aware HERs have evolved out of the old SMRs and contain of information about a wide range of entities from:-

-Archaeological monuments of national importance and which (for the most part) are capable of having their extent defined in some way or other by the presence of physical structures or earthworks, by historic boundaries, by cropmarks, by the evidence from excavations, or by a combination of any of the others. These clearly form constraints in planning terms and worthy of preservation.

-Archaeological monuments and landscapes that are either are of some importance but not enough to be regarded as being of nationally importance (an example of which might be a badly damaged moated site) or which could not be provided with a national designation (an example of which be a mediaeval settlement site that is still a thriving settlement). These may form constraints in planning terms, but making a record of is more likely to be an option than preservation as such.

-A whole raft of other entities, such as isolated findspots, documentary references where there is uncertainly about the location, reliability to what they mean, cropmarks that are not properly understood. Any one of these might indicate the presence of a monument, perhaps even one of national importance, but the present state of information makes it difficult to describe them as constraints or capable of preservation. The best that is likely to happen in a planning context is to gain a further understanding of the significance and possible extent of such an entity.

So Local Lists are much more focussed upon the desire, on behalf a local planning authority, of conserving the character of a structure or an area than a wide ranging HER is ever likely to be.

Chris

>>> Nick Boldrini <[log in to unmask]> 11/03/2011 10:06 >>>

Hi Brian

but so would having the building on the HER.

And that’s my point, I don't see what Local Listing achieves that putting the record on the HER doesn't. So whats the point?

That said, I take Kens point that in a 2 tier authority the situation may be different, but we are a unitary here, so from a purely selfish point of view, I am wondering if there is any benefit in creating a local list.

best wishes

Nick Boldrini

Historic Environment Record Officer

Durham County Council

Tel: 0191 3708840

Fax: 0191 3708897

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Giggins
Sent: 11 March 2011 09:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?

Local listing may help in justifying a building recording condition where planning consent is obtained for demolition or major alterations.

regards

Brian Giggins

On 11 March 2011 09:25, Winfield, Hugh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Nick,

A local list should be used to flag buildings (or whatever you decide to put on it as it's not exclusive to buildings) that are of greater interest than your standard HER entry, and therefore should receive more attention and require stricter planning control than usual. The key to ensuring control of a local list is to Article 4 everything residential and to keep a four-yearly log of the buildings on the list in order to catch any unauthorised alterations before the 5-year enforcement deadline is reached. A local list also needs to be approved by the Borough's planning committee and put in the LDF or SPG to show that the council will take a hard line when making decisions on any planning application affecting the monument/building - this floats well with most planning inspectors who will back up the council's hard-line.

A local list should also make sure that buildings etc of high importance are flagged up before any planning applications are validated, which is especially important when trying to make sure that the developer submits an assessment of significance.

As you know, I'm compiling our borough's list, and although it only contains buildings at the moment, I will eventually move archaeological sites onto it once the councillor's are used to the idea of working with an updated and modern list.

Cheers,

Hugh

Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist
Development Management
Regeneration Department
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216

Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire Council

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 11 March 2011 08:21

To: Winfield, Hugh

Subject: Local Listing - a red herring?

hi folks

I am not sure if many of you have been doing this, but I have been looking at the draft criteria for Local Listing and I am confused.

What is the point of Local Listing?

I can see a historic reason for their existence.

As I understand it , Local Lists used to be purely buildings or structures (i.e. built environment objects I suppose), and were a way of identifying those of interest which were not Listed Buildings to ensure their protection.

To me, that sounds very much like an SMR but for buildings. It is recording non-designated assets to make sure they are protected.

Given that HER's are supposed to now have a wider remit and should include Historic buildings, it seems to me that the idea of a Local List is a bit redundant.

If something is worth protecting, stick it on the HER and that will ensure it will get flagged up during Planning or other land-use change processes and can be taken into account.

As I have read the document, the wording about what a Local List is seems to me to overlap massively with what the HER does.

So why have a Local List?

I can also see disadvantages to the new Local Listing proposals.

The new regime would need to include all aspects of the historic environment, which means drawing up a Local List would be more involved and time consuming. And I can see it being increasingly hard to argue for preservation of things not on a Local List, if you have one, as the creation of the List is a de facto raising of status of a particular Heritage Asset. The guidance says this isn't the case, but the vary act of rating some things as worthy to be on a Local List and others not will have that effect in practice I think.

So what is the point of creating one? Couldn't you just say the Local list is anything on the HER?

I may be missing some things here, but would be interested to know what people think.

best wishes

Nick Boldrini

Historic Environment Record Officer

Archaeology Section

Design and Historic Environment Team

Planning Service

Regeneration and Economic Development

Durham County Council

Rivergreen Centre

Aykley Heads

Durham

DH1 5TS

Tel: 0191 3708840

Fax: 0191 3708897

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