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dear all,
 
I take frank's point, and what he is suggesting is entirely rational.  but we cannot assume that his rationality and common sense is shared by university managers.  in the run up to rae 2008, I was approached by more than one research intensive to comment on staff publication profiles, and they were clearly only interested in a minimum of 3* as a basis for submission to the rae.  and we also know that several russell group unis were highly selective in 2008, submitting fewer than 80% of academic staff in order to maximise their gpa.  that process is bound to continue, but with greater stringency than in 2008. 
 
moreover, as we know, given hefce's own rae 2008 statistics, there will have been a large number of colleagues in uk unis producing entirely decent research which was not rated 3*4* - and may even be 'internationally recognised' according to hefce!!  what happens to them in the new funding environment, esp if they are at pre 1992 unis and have a clear contractual duty to produce research?  if they are excluded from ref, will they lose entitlements to research time and research leave?  in other words, I think the implications of hefce's funding decision are potentially quite horrendous.  and all the relevant info re that decision is on the hefce website (in the context of their reponse to the bis letter to them in december 2010).
 
regards, steve
 
 
 
From: JISCmail German Studies List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Frank Finlay [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 04 March 2011 17:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation

Peter, Colleaagues

In relation to the 3* 4* thread: the important distinction is that HEFCE will not fund research rated below this level. That is a different proposition than research only of that level being submitted.

Imagine Dr X with a profile of published 4 outputs rated, respectively 1@ 4* 1@ 3* and  and 2@ 2* or lower.

Were Dr X not to be submitted, the institution would pass on funding for the outputs at 3 and above.

They would also lose Dr X's students, any grant funding and place in any potential impact case study, all of which would feed into the environment and impact scores which make up 45% of the overall submission (score).

They would be plain daft to do so.

That doesn't of course mean that our institutions will be deliberating on what quality thresholds will have to be met to allow for submission.

As last time it is likely to be derived from a grade point average.

In the above example Dr X would have 2.75 GPA. Depending on your institutional policy, that might suffice. Clearly other profiles are possible.

Please take this as a hopefully helpful comment on the practicalities with a view to allaying concerns, not as an apology for the REF or indeed the multipliers which will be applied to divide up the money. HEFCE has already instructed that present funding for 2* will be reduced and redistributed across 3 and 4* for 11/12 and it is my understanding that there will be nothing for 2* thereafter.

As to a boycott, given that the REF is there, in part, as with the RAE before it, to provide public accountability for the tax payer, I am not sure it would be an approach that would be particularly helpful to the cause of ML or Arts and Humanities in these austere times.

Best, Frank

Frank Finlay, Professor of German | Dean of the Faculty of Arts| The University of Leeds, UK | President, Association for German Studies in Great Britain and Ireland

T: 0113 343 2687 | E: [log in to unmask] | W: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/german/staff/frank_finlay.htm


-----Original Message-----
From: JISCmail German Studies List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Thompson
Sent: 04 March 2011 16:54
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation

Ian and Erica
Of course, if - as seems the case from the other thread on this list - we
are only going to be able to submit 3* and 4* material then the overall
number of submissions will be considerably lower.
It seems to me that we are reaching a stage where we are being asked to
jump through very smaller hoops held ever higher off the ground for ever
diminishing resources. Might it not be time to start to think about modern
languages or even humanities as a whole boycotting the whole sorry and
stressful exercise? We are not performing circus poodles after all.
Peter

Dr Peter Thompson
Director, Centre for Ernst Bloch Studies
http://shef.ac.uk/ernstbloch/)
Senior Lecturer in German
Department of Germanic Studies
Jessop West
1 Upper Hanover Street
Sheffield S3 7RA
tel: 0114 222 4907
fax: 0114 2222 888

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-thompson




Quoting "Ian F. Roe" <[log in to unmask]>:

> Dear Frank and all
>
> Although retirement next year will save me from the lunacy that is REF,
> I can only agree with the criticisms that have been aired. It seems
> rather curious that German departments seek to emphasise that even their
> undergraduate courses are taught by staff who are an expert in the
> particular field,  yet when it is a matter of professional judgments
> affecting millions of pounds of public money and even - dare one say -
> the survival or otherwise of some parts of the sector, then suddenly two
> colleagues are expected to cover the entire discipline.
>
> Regards,  Ian
>
> From: JISCmail German Studies List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carter, Erica
> Sent: 02 March 2011 11:27
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: AGS consultation
>
> Dear Frank,
>
> I agree with Dan that this looks like a very skewed panel. Simply in
> terms of workload, it is unworkable - there is no way that two people,
> however committed and knowledgeable, can deal with the volume of
> material likely to be submitted. And there is of course also an issue of
> coverage. We will all have personal axes to grind on this question - my
> own would be the absence of significant representation on
> German-language film - but that could be dealt with if there was
> critical mass for German on the panel.
>
> Since there is so much at stake here for the discipline, we surely need
> to protest as vigorously as possible at this point. I understand that
> you don't want to add to members' inboxes, but if you're to make
> representation on our behalf, it would make sense for those of us who
> want to see the panel changed to add our names to a list. So count me
> in.
>
> Erica
>
>
> Professor Erica Carter
> Department of German (Incoming HOD)
> School of Arts and Humanities
> King's College London
> The Strand
> London
> WC2R 2LS
>

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