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Of course we might all be forgetting that most destructive of undergraduate habits, far more destructive than drinking. That is, of course, young students insisting on speaking Latin without having the proper skills, something about which Ascham can barely contain his horror: to learne the latin tonge, vse of speaking latin at the table, and elsewhere, vnaduisedlie, did bring him to soch an euill choice of wordes, to soch a crooked framing of sentences, that no one thing did hurt or hinder him more, all the daies of his life afterward, both for redinesse in speaking, and also good iudge- ment in writinge In very deede, if children were brought vp, in soch a house, or soch a Schole, where the latin tonge were properlie and perfitlie spoken, as Tib. and Ca. Gracci were brought vp, in their mother Cornelias house, surelie, than the dailie vse of speaking, were the best and readiest waie, to learne the latin tong. But, now, commonlie, in the best Scholes in England, for wordes, right choice is smallie regarded, true proprietie whollie neglected, confusion is brought in, barbariousnesse is bred vp so in yong wittes, as afterward they be, not onelie marde for speaking, but also corrupted in iudgement: as with moch adoe, or neuer at all, they be brought to right frame againe. May we all be spared from such "barbariousnesse"! Tim On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Debra Rienstra <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Peter, > > This one isn't about drinking, but it does address some other age-old > distractions from learning and from practices of Christian piety--a matter > of less concern now than in earlier ages. This is a quotation a colleague > of mine uses to amuse the audience during a plenary lecture attended by all > our first-year students. I hope it might be helpful. > > Debra > > “They attend classes but make no effort to learn anything.… On feast days > they don’t go to church to hear divine service and sermons and above all > the full mass which all Christians are supposed to attend…, but gad about > town with their fellows or attend lectures or write up their notes at home. > Or, if they go to church, it is not for worship, but to see the girls or > swap stories. . . .” > > Source: Thorndike, *University Records and Life in the Middle Ages *(Columbia > UP, 1944). > > > > Debra Rienstra > Professor of English > Calvin College > 1795 Knollcrest Circle SE > Grand Rapids, MI 49546 > 616-526-8526 > > > >>> ANNE PRESCOTT <[log in to unmask]> 2/9/2011 12:46 PM >>> > > Hi, Peter, whom I don't remember much bending his elbow too much when he > was at Columbia-- > My favorite bit on students and drink is from *The Haven of Health* by > Thomas Cogan (1612), STC 5483, p. 210 (sorry, my partial printout in the > days before EEBO doesn't give me the sig. letter). I saved these pages > because Cogan cites Poggio on a "slothfull Scholer" (p. 14), which grabbed > my eye because relevant to my work on Renaissance jokes--it's the one about > the guy who can't get up because he's watching a psychomachia at the foot of > his bed among the three women Carefulnesse, Slouthfulnesse, the first urging > him to arise and the second telling him to "keepe me from cold in my warme > couch." Many pages later he is still thinking about students and in his > discussion of how wine relates to health (avoid the excess of wine, not > wine, he advises). Then he says, "And the excesse of Wine is the cause as > Leonardus Fuchsius writeth, why few young men that be students, come to > profound knowledge & ripenesse in these dayes . . ." and the rest of the > paragraph explains how first it makes students "disordered and unruly" and > then weak in "wit & mind" and then says students should post the lines by > Eobanus Hessius on the value of sobriety. There is then more on how some say > young men should avoid wine (Peter, be very careful) but that it's good for > "old age" (Anne Prescott take note). The margin, meantime, has noted "Why > Students in these dayes come not to such perfect knowledge as they have done > in time past." > What gets me about all this is the assumption that thing used to be better > than they are. Yes, professors seem to have been saying this forever. These > youngsters just don't make flint arrow points like us older guys used to, I > bet some elderly caveman said. You call that a hieroglyph? Why my > grandfather . . . hey, kid, you been drinking that new invention called > beer? Anne. > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Katherine Eggert < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> I did a quick EEBO-TCP proximity search for "student" and "drunken" and >> came up with one A. Marsh's "Confession of the new married couple, being the >> second part of the ten pleasures of marriage relating the further delights >> and contentments that ly mask'd under the bands of wedlock" (London, 1683). >> The "Eighth Pleasure" of marriage? A chapter on how "The Parents would bring >> up their son in their way of Trade, but he hath no mind to't. He is put to >> School out of the City. Grows a Scholler, commits much mischief. Is >> apprehended and informed what a Schollerlike life is." >> >> It's a long chapter about all the stuff university students get up to -- >> drinking, gambling, writing home for money. (My favorite part is when the >> student sells his books and puts cleverly carved wood blocks in their places >> on the shelves to fool his parents and masters.) Even the studious and >> obedient ones turn out badly: they go to graduate school. >> >> Peter, I'll send you an .html page with this chapter, but for my money >> here's the best quote: "For it hath many times hapned, that those who have >> been the maddest and wildest Students at the University, have afterwards >> come to be noble Personages, Ministers of State, and learned Doctors." Present >> company included, I am sure. >> >> Katherine >> >> >> Katherine Eggert >> Associate Professor of English >> University of Colorado >> 226 UCB >> Boulder, CO 80309-0226 >> >> [log in to unmask] >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: John Leonard >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:18 PM >> Subject: Re: undergrad learning in early modern times >> >> >> "Complaining"? The best early modern professors (just like the best late >> early ones) were having a drink WITH their students. The only question is: >> how often? >> >> He who of those delights can judge and spare >> To interpose them oft is not unwise. >> >> John Leonard >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Peter Herman >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 6:52 PM >> Subject: Re: undergrad learning in early modern times >> >> >> Hello, >> >> In preparation for a meeting tomorrow on Arum and Roska’s Academically >> Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses, could someone supply me with a >> choice quote from early modern professors complaining about how their >> students are interested only in drinking, etc., rather than learning? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Peter C. Herman >> > > -- Timothy Duffy Ph.D. Candidate Assistant Director, UVA Writing Center Department of English University of Virginia