Probably as well if we pursue this rather esoteric topic off
list – you’ll find my email address below
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray
Reader in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,Newport/Casnewydd
NP18 3QT, Wales/Cymru
Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
'The truth shall make ye fret'
(Terry Pratchett, Truth)
Email: [log in to unmask]
History at University of Wales, Newport: http://timezone.newport.ac.uk
Gwent County History Association website: http://gwent-county-history-association.newport.ac.uk
Cistercian Way: http://cistercian-way.newport.ac.uk
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions
of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Alison Goulbourne
Sent: 25 January 2011 12:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] double monasteries
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
religion and culture
HI Maddy,
Sorry if I repeat myself here,
Taken from a paper written by J wyn Evans on the Early Church in
Denbighshire it is mentioned that it is clear that Gwytherin with its
large parish was of considerable importance at an earlier period. The
"lives" of St Gwenfrewi imply that there were two communities, one
for women, one for men.the latter associated with St Eleri and the former with
his mother Theonia who was then surpassed by St Gwenfrewi as who became Abbess
over a group of women..
As you know her cult was so important that the Benedictine Monks of Shrewsbury
wished to have her bones for their Abbey. So she was no small figure, her
history and cult were obviously well known.
The glebe terrier for 1749 records that there was a piece of
ground on the south side of the churchyard, about a quater of an acre,this
was, according to tradition, the burial site of St Gwenfrewi, St
Eleri.,Theonia, St Sannon and others. In The 17th century Edward Lhuyd
stated that there was a tombstone at Kappel Gwenfrewi in ye south part of the
churchyard...this is now in the church the chapel site is now known as
Penbryn Chapel.
Edward Lhuyd sketched the reliquary box of
saint Gwenfrewi/winifred on his visit to the church and chapel site...this
reliquary box survived untill penants day lewis's topographical dictionary
in its forth edition of 1850 states that it was still in the church as does
westwood in 1858 but by this day reduced to a piece of wood, which has been
dated to the 8th century certainly pre conquest!
Evidence for Gwytherins earlier history still survives with the
upright pillar stones, one with debased Roman capitals reads from top to bottom
Vinnemagli Fili Senemagli nash williams dated the stone or the writting to the
fith or early sixth century no doubt the stone is much older and is believed to
have come from the chapel site.... the present alignment is not natural.
Like the yews which are at least 2,500 old having been dated by Mr
David Bellamy the sites history speaks for itself.The huge circular site points
also to an earlier settlement iron or bronze age.The Names on the stone
possibly leaders or founders of an early welsh society...thus it maybe
that the site was secular before it was saintly and that it may have developed
into the enclosure and latter churchyard and church.
In the 14th century Survey of the honour of Denbigh it is stated
that a certain due called an abbadaeth
was paid at gwytherin to abbates of the progeny of Cynon ap Llywarch as far as
is known there was no monastic or other such like community in gwytherin at
this time the term abbadaeth
does, however, occur in association with other Ecclesiastical sites such as Penmon and Aberdaron,which were
both known to have churches
in the pre -conquest period. professor Glanville jones argued
that the abbates were at least in the beginning lords over bondmen"
further , Edward Lhuyd made reference in parochialia, taken from Buckley's
survey of the lordship of Denbigh, to the fact that the progeny of rhadvach,
held the whole of the commote of Uwch Duals except for the terras ecclesiasticus de Gwytherin,these were probably the
abbates, who may
or may not have been the successors of the leaders of an ecclesiastical
community in Gwytherin.
...just of note llanfair Rhyd Castell was once possibly in the
possession of Gwytherin and during the construction of a road 40 long
cists graves were found, evidence for a substantial cemetary but also the cover
slab of one of the graves was a re -used inscribed stone it commemorated
in latin a husband and wife , Brochfael and Caune again nash williams dated it
to the early 5th/ 6th century.
the area is facinating Maddy hope I havent bored you.
WHERE THE MONASTRY LAY WHO KNOWS, MAYBE ONLY ARCHEOLOGISTS COULD
SATISFY THIS QUESTION, BUT I FIND THE SITE FACINATING AND I AM DETERMINED
TO KEEP ITS HISTORY ALIVE.I AM NO HISTORIAN WHICH IS WHY I ASK FOR AS MUCH
INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE TO GIVE ME INSIGHT INTO THESE EARLY RELIGOUS
SETTLEMENTS.
-----Original Message-----
From: Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 8:22
Subject: Re: [M-R] double monasteries
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
Unfortunately we don't have any hard evidence for Gwenfrewi's community
before the C12 vitae. These describe it as a community of women, though in one
version it was founded by a male saint (who then put his mother in charge of
the community).
However, as one of the vitae was written by the Benedictine prior
who had moved Gwenfrewi's relics to Shrewsbury and the other may have been
written under Cistercian influence, it is of course possible that traditions of
a double/mixed community were elided. A double community would certainly have
been possible in early Wales.
Alison, do you know anything about the tradition that Gwenfrewi's
original site was a mile or so to the south, some way up the valley?
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray
Reader in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44
(0)1633.432675
'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the
darkness' (Terry Pratchett, Men
at Arms)
From:
medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]]
on behalf of Alison Goulbourne [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 24 January 2011 21:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] double monasteries
medieval-religion: Scholarly
discussions of medieval religion and culture
I have recently bought a church to
preserve it's history in gwytherin, n Wales. it was I believe an early
double monastic settlement where St winifred/ gwenfrewi became abbess in the
7th century. It became a place of pilgrimage and there was a drawing produced
by Edward lluyd of a reliquary box now in the Bodleian in Oxford. Robert
prior of Shrewsbury documented the life of and translation of bones from
gwytherin to Shrewsbury . I would like very much to know more about these
settlements. The site is very old possibly bronze age or earlier... Yew trees
have been dated to 2,500 years. The church is east west and on a mound to
the south opposite the church is the chapel site or burial mound where a number
of saints have been recorded as being buried. There are some pillar stones one
with roman writing on.
Any information on these
early sites would be gratefully recieved.
Alison goulbourne
St winifreds church
Gwytherin.
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Jan 2011, at 18:20, George Brown <[log in to unmask]>
wrote: