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I would be interested both in contributing and in collaborating, as I have prepared documents regarding this topic previously (e.g., as a co-author and member of Professionals Concerned with Gender Diagnoses in the DSM and elsewhere) and feel this task is very important. I would also reiterate my caution not to cast Zucker solely as 'anti-gay' nor his methods with children who have self-designated, non-assigned genders as 'anti-gay', as this represents an inaccurate and unhelpful erasure of his focus on violating children's ability to determine and express their own gender. As Jemma's work reveals, there are numerous distinct issues with Zucker's approach to psychology that range from gender to sexual orientation, from sexual assault to service engager autonomy. I think there is room for multiple voices and multiple perspectives here, while being careful not to obscure one issue even as we may each focus on another. Gavi On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Jem Tosh <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I would be interested in contributing something - but would need an idea > of how long the article/letter/piece would need to be and when it needs > completed by. I have written a commentary on the events for the Psychology > of Women Section Review (POWSR) as well. > > Jem > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:06:36 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: sponse > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > I am in agreement for a readers letter and an article if people feel > qualified to do this but for myself I would be unable to dedicate the time > that this would require in order to do it justice and I'm not sure I have > the level of expertise in this area that would be required in order to > counter Zuckers theories in a potent and powerful manner. > > Sorry David for not making my wishes known sooner after all your efforts on > our behalf! > Jacx > > > > > > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 21:01:29 +0000 > > From: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: our Statement re.Zucker & The Psychologist > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > First thanks to David for following this up. I think it is worth > > responding, at least with a reader's letter, to the inaccuracies in the > > event report. A number of people on the list were concerned about > Zucker's > > work impacting negatively on individual children, and narrowing down what > it > > means for all of us to have a sexual and gendered identity. I really like > > > the last sentence of Phil Mollon's letter: "I suggest we need to respect > > developmental autonomy and the evolution of the unknown self – core > values, > > it seems to me, that can help to provide a protected psychotherapeutic > space > > for reflection on the deeply personal mystery of sexuality". > Unfortunately > > the rest of his letter is about the issue of "reparative therapy for > > homosexuality" in response to Susan Kapp's letter which I havent read > (where > > oh where is my December copy of my beloved Psychologist?) so I'm not sure > > > how the debate got shunted into this blind alley. > > > > I agree with Gavi about proceeding with caution. I would be very > interested > > in reading an article about how children identifying very strongly > against > > their assigned gender challenges our ideas of human sexual identity and > how > > Zucker's work (crude behaviourism) is as much of an unsatifactory attempt > at > > closure as crude biological determinism. As I often ponder when faced > with > > such questions "what would Judith Butler say?". However, it might be > quite > > an undertaking to propose a special issue along these lines for the > > Psychologist. On the other hand a well-written "think piece" reflecting > on > > Zuckergate would probably be suitable for Clinical Psychology Forum, if > > anyone would like to give it a go. > > > > Deborah > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fryer, David" <[log in to unmask]> > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 4:16 PM > > Subject: Re: our Statement re.Zucker & The Psychologist > > > > > > There has been little indication that List members suggesting the List > > wishes to take up Jon Sutton on this offer or indeed to continue with > debate > > and action on this matter. I am aware of only 3 posts since 8th Dec: > Deborah > > argued tentatively in favour of pursuing this; Gavi issued a caution re > > strategy; and Richard seems to suggest "a well prepared symposium/special > > > edition, or whatever" would be more suitable than a Reader's letter in > the > > Psychologist. Am I reading the list accurately enough to summarise that > in > > general the List members do not wish to take this matter further in the > ways > > suggested below? I feel I should respond to Jon in some fashion > > David > > > > David Fryer > > > > ________________________________ > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List > > [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Fryer > > [[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: 08 December 2010 07:50 > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: our Statement re.Zucker & The Psychologist > > > > Dear All, > > You will remember that the Statement of Concern re Prof Zucker's work was > > > sent amongst others to the Editor of The Psychologist, Jon Sutton. He has > > > now replied. The whole string is pasted in below FYI. Note that Jon asks > > some questions and also sends us a copy of an 'event report' in which > Prof > > Zucker comments and a reader's letter which will be published. The > identity > > of the author of the reader's letter is disclosed. I checked if it was OK > to > > circulate this letter on the List and Jon said it was but asked that the > > letter and the report not be circulated beyond this list prior to > > publication. > > > > There are a number of issues for us to decide upon, here are some which > > occur to me: > > > > Do we want the statement published as a reader's letter? > > > > If so do we want to amend it now the conference has taken place and in > the > > light of the event report and other letter as Jon suggests? Note that a > > 'reply 'would also be published. > > > > Would want to offer and alternative event report? Partly because it is > > inaccurate or at least I have read a rather different report by Jemma, > and > > partly because it is yet another case of the Society offering a platform > for > > Zucker's voice and not really an event report. > > > > Do we have a position on Phil Mollon's letter and if so would we want to > > weave that in to a revision? > > > > Do we want to ask for space for a longer article in The Psychologist > also? > > > > When a consensus on the above is reached or evident I am willing to reply > on > > behalf of the List collectively if that is the wish of the List or we can > > > agree another way to proceed > > > > David > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > From: Jon Sutton <[log in to unmask]> > > To: David Fryer <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Tue, 7 December, 2010 23:14:35 > > Subject: Re: Your letter on Zucker > > > > Hi David, > > Yes, that’s fine, on the understanding that both letter and report are > > confidential to the list members until publication. > > Cheers > > Jon > > > > On 07/12/2010 12:07, "David Fryer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for the request for clarification, further information and > > opportunity for revision. I sent the message but it was produced > > collectively by the UK Community Psychology Discussion List members. I > will > > liaise with the other members before answering your question by > circulating > > your email and report. Is it OK to also circulate Phil Mallon's letter > when > > I do so ? that would be useful. I am assuming it would be OK as obviously > > > Phil's letter is meant for public circulation but wanted to check with > you > > first > > David > > ________________________________ > > From: Jon Sutton <[log in to unmask]> > > To: David Fryer <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Tue, 7 December, 2010 22:27:04 > > Subject: Your letter on Zucker > > > > Dear Dr Fryer, > > Your statement of concern was copied to me. Can I ask whether you > intended > > it for publication in The Psychologist, and if so whether you would like > to > > take the opportunity to amend it in light of the event itself, and our > > audience? You might also find our report of the event, due out in the Jan > > > issue, helpful. I have also copied a letter in response to the letter on > > p.952 of the December issue: this is also set for Jan. > > Any resubmission or revision would be considered for our February issue > now. > > This would hopefully allow time for a suitable response. > > Best wishes > > Dr Jon Sutton > > Editor > > > > Event report: > > The distant chants of a small but noisy protest could be heard throughout > > > Ken Zucker’s (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, Toronto) keynote on > > > Gender Identity Disorder (GID) in children and adolescents. According to > an > > introduction from DCP chair Jenny Taylor, several BPS groups, including > the > > Psychology of Women and the Psychology of Sexualities sections, had > called > > for Zucker’s invite to be rescinded on the basis that children’s gender > > confusion shouldn’t be pathologised and amidst allegations that Zucker > had > > practised ‘reparative’ therapy for homosexuality. Zucker denied this – > ‘it’s > > an urban myth,’ he said – and also denied that his clinic had ever had > the > > goal of reducing homosexual outcomes in children. > > > > Zucker described the diagnosis of GID and gave several examples of > children > > who fulfill the criteria, including one girl who pleaded with her parents > to > > be given a penis for her sixth birthday. The key criteria are a strong > and > > persistent cross-gender identity, dressing in opposite-gender clothing, > > disliking of one’s sexual anatomy, and verbalising the wish to change > > genders. Zucker, who is chair of the American Psychiatric Association’s > > DSM-5 work group for Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders, said that the > > current proposal was to change the name to ‘Gender Incongruence’ and to > drop > > the word ‘Disorder’ in the hope of reducing stigma. The explicit desire > to > > change gender was also going to be made a compulsory criterion for > > diagnosis. > > > > Regarding developmental trajectories, there appear to be two pathways. > Most > > young children diagnosed with GID lose their ‘gender dysphoria’ with > time. > > By contrast, the feeling of being the wrong gender persists in 75 per > cent > > of adolescents, only subsiding with the help of surgery or hormone > > treatment. As for links with homosexuality (another issue raised by > > protestors), the majority of boys diagnosed with GID grow up to be > > homosexual adults, Zucker said, but only a minority of girls with a > > diagnosis of DID develop into adult lesbians. > > > > Letter: > > In her letter to the Psychologist (December 2010), Sylvia Kapp, on behalf > of > > the DCP Faculty of HIV and Sexual Health states: “The Faculty believes > that > > healthcare professionals who attempt to change sexual orientation may be > > committing human rights violations”. The implication seems to be that > some > > practitioners may set out with an intention of somehow ‘changing’ a > person’s > > sexual orientation – perhaps a bit like the behavioural aversion > therapists > > of the 1960s and early 70s. I doubt there are many of those around these > > days. However, is it considered unethical to assist a person in exploring > > > their thoughts and feelings? Sometimes people are uncertain of their > sexual > > orientation. It can happen that a young person may conclude, in the > course > > of therapy, that his or her sexual orientation has a less fixed and rigid > > > quality than they may previously have thought, and may choose to explore > > other aspects and forms of sexual expression. Of course, stigmatisation > of > > homosexuality can give rise to deep distress. On the other hand it is > often > > our human attachment to rigid identities - all ultimately illusory, > false, > > and culturally shaped – that can create psychological prisons that cause > > misery. Regarding the Bartlett study quoted by Kapp, it would be easy to > > draw a misleading inference that if a psychotherapist or counsellor were > to > > say he or she had ‘helped’ a lesbian, gay, or bisexual person reduce > their > > sexual feelings, this must mean it was the therapist’s intention to do > so, > > rather than it being simply one outcome of the client’s self-exploration. > > > Sexuality is perhaps more fluid and multifaceted, and identity less > fixed, > > than Kapp’s letter (paradoxically) implies. I suggest we need to respect > > developmental autonomy and the evolution of the unknown self – core > values, > > it seems to me, that can help to provide a protected psychotherapeutic > space > > for reflection on the deeply personal mystery of sexuality. > > > > Phil Mollon > > Psychoanalyst > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > The British Psychological Society > > > > This email is intended for the addressee only. It may contain > confidential > > information: disclosure of or action in reliance upon this information by > > > anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. 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Gavriel Ansara, MSc (PhD Candidate) 席嘉力 آتش جاوید גבריאל יוסף 'Zoos are full, prisons are overflowing... my, how the world still dearly loves a cage.' -Maude ٠•●♥Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ♥●•٠·˙ PhD Researcher & Academic Tutor University of Surrey, Department of Psychology http://www.psy.surrey.ac.uk/index.htm Founder & Co-Coordinator, Critical Psychology at Surrey http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=373193592940&ref=ts Teaching Faculty, The Kerulos Ctr http://kerulos.org/ Contributing Author, Counselling Ideologies: Queer Challenges to Heteronormativity http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754676836 Member & Co-Author, Professionals Concerned with Gender Diagnoses in the DSM http://www.professionals.gidreform.org/ Former Founding Director & Former Founding Advocates Programme Co-Supervisor, Lifelines Rhode Island/Cuerdas de Salvamento http://lifelinesri.org/ Speaker on Multicultural Issues, Organisation Intersex International (OII) http://intersexualite.org/Gavi.html ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK