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Dear Clive a very fulsome and attractive account of knowledge and objects. Could we simply say that for those who know how to translate the language of an object (or parts of the language) that the object embodies an amount of knowledge equal to what they can derive? And for those who don't know how to translate, the object of attention is like the coke bottle in The Gods Must be Crazy where basic utility functions (and mytho-poetic realisations) are derived but little else? Which kind of leaves us with what you know you know and what you don't know you don't know. cheers keith russell from a wet Melbourne