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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture OK - an article with some useful paralels on Vidmus at http://www.vidimus.org/archive/issue_10_2007/issue_10_2007-03.html Maddy Dr Madeleine Gray Reader in History School of Education/Ysgol Addysg University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness' (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) ________________________________________ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Madeleine Gray [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 22 November 2010 08:52 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [M-R] FW: Essex reliquary: Long hair and spikenard? medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture See below from Tony Parkinson (with whom I've been working on the St Teilo's Project). Does anyone know the Ashton-under-Lyne glass? Maddy Dr Madeleine Gray Reader in History School of Education/Ysgol Addysg University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness' (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) ________________________________________ From: Anthony Parkinson [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 21 November 2010 16:41 To: Madeleine Gray Subject: Re: Essex reliquary: Long hair and spikenard? Dear Maddy I saw the Daily Tel photo and thought 'Ooh!' On the basis of woodcuts, I suspect Helena rather than Mary Magdalene - although not often depicted, she seems generally to have either the pot of ointment, or a palm-branch (though this may be 'generic female saint'). And the Wikipedia images (mostly very much later than the reliquary/amulet/locket) show Mary at the foot of the cross - not with an empty cross. However I take the point about the Sacred Heart/Mary the penitent. The only Helena woodcut I can locate shows her with a man holding one of three crosses - so not conclusive. There is, however, apparently a life of Helena in glass panels at Ashton under Lyne (Lancs). The 'kings' names on the sides ought to be relevant - who else was venerated at Cologne? And is there a fourth name or inscription on the fourth side? Life in sunny Hampshire is pretty good - I keep on running across scraps of early wall-paintings in churches where I turn up to play in a concert! Yours Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madeleine Gray" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:56 PM Subject: FW: Essex reliquary: Long hair and spikenard? > > I'm sure that little boy has NO IDEA what he has started! > I think Graham's suggested identification has points in favour. Do you > have woodcuts of Mary Mag as well as Helena? > > Maddy > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Reader in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness' > (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) > > ________________________________________ > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Graham Jones > [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 21 November 2010 11:23 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [M-R] Essex reliquary: Long hair and spikenard? > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Another couple of thoughts, having looked more closely at the figure with > the Cross, for example at > http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/rayleigh/8668797.Boy__4__strikes_gold_on_his_first_treasure_hunt/?ref=rss > > Firstly, is that not long hair falling from the woman's head to below her > waist? Is this the clincher in favour of Mary Magdelene? > > Added to which, can someone have a crack at identifying the plant(s) shown > to left and right? Could it be spikenard, with the oil from which Mary > annointed Christ's feet? > http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/spikenard.aspx > > Graham > > **************************************************************** > Dr Graham Jones, St John's College, Oxford OX1 3JP > Senior Research Associate, Oxford University School of Geography > > ________________________________________ > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Graham Jones > [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 21 November 2010 10:51 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 20. November/Essex reliquary > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Dear All (and Maddy in particular) > > Having got into all this saints business through an interest in Helen, I > hate to line up on the side of those who doubt the figure on the amulet is > her. Her cult in Colchester was certainly important - she was patron of > the civic guild, after all. However, Essex is a big county and while > Colchester is in the north, almost on the Suffolk border, Hockley, where > the amulet was found, is in the south, almost as near to London as it is > to Colchester and not far from the Thames estuary. > > See the Wiki page on Mary Magdalene for more images of her clasping the > Cross: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene > She is the architypal penitent and the Sacred Heart and drops of > blood/sweat are emblematic of salvation through the Cross and Resurrection > (MM is a central figure in the Easter story, too). > > I wish I could find my large-scale JPG of the Limerick image. I'll keep > looking. > > I think we can be sure of the Magi - the BBC photos show the name > 'Balthasar' on another of the side faces. The Magi's gifts of gold, > frankincense and myrrh foretell the story of Redemption through death and > ressurection. > > The amulet appears to speak of suffering and a clinging to hope. > > And if the Three Kings are in the picture, given the location of the find > so close to the Thames Estuary, there is always the possibility that the > piece originated at Cologne, where the Magi were, of course, greatly > venerated. Its owner might even have been involved in a shipwreck - in > which case its presence in Essex might be entirely fortuitous. > > Best wishes > > Graham > > **************************************************************** > Dr Graham Jones, St John's College, Oxford OX1 3JP > Senior Research Associate, Oxford University School of Geography > > ________________________________________ > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Madeleine Gray > [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 21 November 2010 09:06 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 20. November/Essex reliquary > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Good ol' Wikipedia - and it gives the Colchester connection. > The depiction on the amulet/reliquary looks to me as if it could be based > on a woodcut. That might be a possible line of enquiry to track down an > identification. > Back to the library ... > > Maddy > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Reader in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness' > (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) > ________________________________ > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Marjorie Greene > [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 21 November 2010 01:51 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 20. November/Essex reliquary > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > This page: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_of_Constantinople > shows H. in various venues with a huge cross, especially the shrine in > Saint Peter's, and with or without crown. > The Essex find appears rather bizarre to me. All I could see of Magi was a > name that looked more like "IASPAR" than "Caspar," if indeed that was what > Jim was referring to. > But I think the refusal to accept Helena as the person in question solely > on the "no crown" basis is incorrect. > MG > > Marjorie Greene > http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/ > > --- On Sat, 11/20/10, Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > From: Madeleine Gray <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 20. November > To: [log in to unmask] > Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 5:14 PM > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > I've been trying several times to send to the list a link to our BBC > reporting of a reliquary found in a field in Essex. Apparently the British > Museum has described it as depicting the Virgin Mary with a cross > symbolising the Pieta. A colleague emailed suggesting it was more likely > St Helen and was told very firmly that it couldn't be Helen because the > figure is not crowned. I'd like to consult the collective wisdom of the > list - so I'll try to send this again but without the link in case that's > the problem. Without the link you can find it by going to the BBC site and > keying in Reliquary as a search term. > > Maddy > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Reader in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness' > (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html