Matthew,
Western Civilisation is as an abuse family dynamic writ large. There's the abuser, the victim, the survivor, the escapist, the scapegoat, the apologist.... all dancing in a spiral of control and coping strategy, yet maintaining the abuse dynamic.
1. Whilst networks exist, POWER, and in particluar decision making POWER is transmitted via Hiearchical Structures. There are the networks of POWER too. And they are hierachical in nature.
eg : Ireland's Politicians dance to the tune of the IMF, the Bankers, the Largest Corporations and personal profit, NOT to the Irish Electorate nor the future of Irish Children. That also represents a heirarchy of selfishness. Show me ONE country no afflicted by this...
Social and Activist Networks in the West are POWER-LESS in that they can
do nothing to halt the ACTIONS of power.. such as bailing the banks out and cutting welfare programs, launching wars of aggression, enabling mining and logging in lands in which gatherer hunter peoples live (which they don't want, don't need and never asked for....)
What you seem to forget is that Western Civilisation and it's wealth is predicated on the 'extirpation' of the 'savage', and that there is no reason to believe that this has changed one whit, apart from what is allowed in Pr....
Right now in Canada, USA, Australia, Colombia, Peru, Equador, Brazil, Governments and Corporations are actively engaged in undermining traditional land communities so as to gain 'access' to land replete with minerals. Whilst those with blinkered vision call this progress, it is actually MURDER on a daily basis, abloody and horrid business..
2. To NOT include a concern for the future of all children as a fundamental biological imperative is
a deep misunderstanding of how natural living processes actually function. And is at the root of ALL the current problems. Don't hestitate on this one. State it CLEARLY so as to separate the chaff from the wheat, especially with regard to action taken or proposed....
As for wishing me good luck, it's not me but the chuildren of the next few generations - they will be dealign with what YOU AND I AND ALL OF US WORKING TODAY did not deal with.... and they will be well able to see better than we do whether or not we were diligent with our work....
3. MY stance is that ecomomists and the ecomony by it's very nature cannot serve the needs of the children of the future, let alone the needs of the children of the present. The VERY PRESENCE OF POVERTY is proof positive that the SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK - IT CANNOT BE REFORMED. And more importantly it REFUSES REFORMATION AT EVERY TURN.
Don't you get the message? Those who hold Power
and Wealth do not wish to let go or even share it. All the 'movements' are being 'played', and few are brave enouhg to acknowledge it.
That (the reformation) is a middle class wet dream.
Kindest regards
Corneilius
"do what you love it's your gift to the universe!"
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From: Mathew Davies <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 20:03:52
Subject: Re: A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilization And How to Save It
Thank you Corluminous
Although I take issue with this definition, as even western civilisation, mad eup of sovereign states act, clearly I think, as networks with relative influence rather than hierarchical systems.
1) 'There are 350,000,000 gatherer hunters still extant and their lands of which they are an expression of, part of are now under direct threat, and with current behaviour un-challenged they will all be dead within 50 years'
reminds me of Brave new world by Huxley, ergo, they don't neccessarily have to go extinct, even if current trends suggest that.
2) 'As for myself, the incentive I have for acting is this : I am aparent and I want that my chidlrens lives are NOT BLIGHTED by what I failed to do, or failed to address. Altruism extends this feelign to all children, of all nations, and indeed of life itself'
Agreed, on a personal level, however I think it would be hasty to make this a universal catagorical imperative. Although basically agreed. Good luck in your endeavours with this.
3) 'The psychological problem is the one that inheres to all those who accept the principles of heirarchy over self organisation - that is to say the 'right' to exert coercion over others to meet a set of 'percieved needs' and the exercise of unmitigated abuse in support of that 'right' - hierarchy is un-natural, self organisation is fully natural, the former is unsustainable, the latter pretty much infinite'
Again this word hierarchy. Networks these days, even in the industrial system. I would be interested to see idealists formulate a coherant strategy to impove the world factoring in freedom, law, economic (meaning the regulation and management of resources), and stability. No rational man would want to destroy the world, or be part of that process, but cohesive strategies are needed rather than broad generalisations - and forcasts. This means, economists, security analysts and so on. Thats my stance.
M
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Corluminous
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Matthew, I did mean Dominant Culture...
As in the Dominant Culture that is Industrial (Western) Civilisation or as Derrick Jensen points out 'Civilisation'......
Civilisation is defined by Jensen as the organisational structure, hierarchical ideology and practices of high density urban areas which neccessitate the 'import' of materials (resources) from other habitats, which means that other living processes are then deprived of what they need to continue to thrive. Some of those living processes happen to be human beings...... most are other creatures, plants and entire habitats (such as a living forest).
There are 350,000,000 gatherer hunters still extant and their lands of which they are an expression of, part of are now under direct threat, and with current behaviour un-challenged they will all be dead within 50 years.....
These people, for the most part are not undermining the natural fecundity of the habitat.... to them it's simply a matter of empathy and common-sense. Indeed, if the West simply collapsed, they'd be the first to benefit.
As for myself, the incentive I have for acting is this : I am aparent and I want that my chidlrens lives are NOT BLIGHTED by what I failed to do, or failed to address. Altruism extends this feelign to all children, of all nations, and indeed of life itself.
To reduce these discussions to a question of incentives to be imposed or dangled as a 'carrot' is inadequate to the taks we are faced with....
The psychological problem is the one that inheres to all those who accept the principles of heirarchy over self organisation - that is to say the 'right' to exert coercion over others to meet a set of 'percieved needs' and the exercise of unmitigated abuse in support of that 'right' - hierarchy is un-natural, self organisation is fully natural, the former is unsustainable, the latter pretty much infinite.
I hope this helps to explain my stance.
Kindest regards
Corneilius
"do what you love it's your gift to the universe!"
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From: Mathew Davies <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 11:22:01
Subject: Re: A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilization And How to Save It
Corluminous
I think you mean Dominant species rather than dominant culture because dominant culture would denote a human sub type, and
you were addressing 'hierarchical' systems, as you wrote in 3. Followed by addressing whatever psychological problem you are referring too, which to me seems a little vague and harsh when written in concert with 'headless chickens' as you colorfully wrote.
Lest we forget that structural problems emerge from both the free market and government intervention, of which neither seems to
have fully triumphed in the Maggie or Tony period. However, there are indicators of progress in the shape this Forum no doubt would like to go and equally in preparation for human wipe out games.
What I think, as this is a forum, is less ideology and more pragmatism, which to be honest, as a journalist for the San Fran chron and Krakow Post I encounter everyday. The missing linchpin if you like (European Context) is a receptive audience, which the EU is pumping money into developing.
The environmentalist movement is not exempt from ego, and the jumping on the bandwagon game. Education may begin at home, but the question remains, where is the incentive? the end of man has been preached for centuries, and in an era of contradicting messages, it isn't an incentive on a regional, state, let alone, when taken in consideration of a million people living below the poverty line, global extent.
M
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Corluminous
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
John Nissen wrote....
"My claim is that we've f***ed up the planet, through putting a collosal pulse of CO2 into the atmosphere, and now geoengineering has to be used to get out of the mess. Can you suggest any other way? "
1. We have NOT f****d up the planet; IT is more truthful to say that Our Dominant Culture IS undermining natural living processes, in practically everything it engages in, and that this process if continued will result not in the destruction of ALL natural life processes, but of all those currently being used as 'resources' by The Dominant Culture - and that even if all that is left, if that trajectory is maintained to it's denuement, is bacterial life, given a few million years, MORE life will emerge, and continue to build the basis for biodiversity and a fecund environment - Thats what nature does.
2. Without addressing the psychological core that drives the activity of The Dominanat Culture, there are neither technical nor 'magical' fixes of any kind that can help. That core psychology goes so deep that even though many people cliam to be 'eco' activists, their efforts are failing bcause they have failed to de-colonise their own minds and bodies of the internalisations of the Dominant Cultural Psychology. As Einstein mused, "one cannot resolve a problem from the same mind-set that created the problem."
More technical control does not resolve the problem of a dependency upon technical control.
2. CO2 is but one TINY part of the problem. And it's part of many other practices other than fossil fuel use...
To my knowledge there is NO-ONE in Government or the mainstream 'change' movement addressing the psychological realities underpinning 'civilisation' or looking at the psychological realities of the natural world..... Nature has a psyche, a bio-logic, and the intent can be seen by the results - left to her own devices, nature creates more life for ALL and builds fecundity (top soil) year on year.... and ALL natural living processes co-operate in this process.
Loads of people running around like headless chickens, swearing at each other about this tech-fix or that ideology or that belief system is unlikely to do anything other than boost a few egos, entertain a few cycnics, irritate a few leaders and very little else....
For example, in all the data and kerfuffle about fossil fuels and eco-fuels for cars, for example, NO-ONE has mentioned that the making of the vehicle itself causes ten times more damage to Nature, and to people who live within Nature, than ANY fuel use over the average life of a given vehicle.... and that damage is increased by making cars that cannot be easily maintained outside a specialist - try replacing a light bulb in a modern car...
It is easy to be distracted when one has yet to face one's own conditioning - and that is the KEY element in Hierarchical Societies ability to control others...
Ecology, and Bio-Logic start at home.....
Kindest regards
Corneilius
"do what you love it's your gift to the universe!"
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From: "Wright, Steve" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, 3 October, 2010 23:00:07
Subject: Re: A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilization And How to Save It
Dear John,
500,000 people will die this year from small arms and light weapons, 250 million got infected by Malaria and WHO estimated 1 million died. Was there a world wide campaign to prevent these preventable deaths? Not quite because the massive structural violence encompassing food poverty was happening largely in the global South. Few are suggesting global engineering to deal with these real world problems now because they affect disposable people in far away places; most of the arms dealing is being done by G8 members and we will only get hot under the collar when global warming brings malaria to us.
So my short answer is that here is not just one climate change mess but a series of messes associated with a belief system of consumption and distribution which can not be technically fixed. The politics of the patterns of that consumption are rapidly changing. In the West, the poor will have to pick up the tab for the costs of casino banking, in the East the masses in Pakistan have few to dig them out of their flooded country...and further East the financial pole is shifting away from the Stock
exchanges of London and New York towards Shanghai.
All the while the drumbeat of assymetrical conflict chews into our economies, schools or aircraft carriers, alarums and excursions....
Within that context, the clarion call of an instant believable fix calls us like a siren to assuage our infantile feelings of helples ness against what appears to be tidal waves of social, political and environmental change.
The mistake in geo engineering philosophy is that everyone will believe my geo- engineering is for the gerater good whilst your geo engineering has hidden agendas... So who is going to trust whom? In any event the shockwaves coming from the other crises will filter through into mass migration - what collective agrements and financing in a recession will be devoted towards that?
But in the end I think you will be right. How does a starving frightened world face up to reality? Usually with xenophobia and a highly militarized fortresss mentality. We saw it in Iraq and Afghanistan where all the civilised taboos againt torture and murder of innocents were put to one side. I for one dont want to live in a corporately geo-engineered world and guess before my long life is done, I will end up on some barricade cursing the shortsigheted muppets who dealt us this fate...but I shall enjoy further debates with collegues on this site as our options narrow, hopefully planting trees that will outlive us.
Steve
From: John Nissen [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Fri 01/10/2010 23:37
To: Wright, Steve
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilization And How to Save It
Hi Steve,
But do you accept my challenge? My claim is that we've f***ed up the planet, through putting a collosal pulse of CO2 into the atmosphere, and now geoengineering has to be used to get out of the mess. Can you suggest any other way? Do you really want the situation to get worse and worse, because that's what will happen - and will continue to happen if all we do is to reduce CO2 emissions. I wish that this were not the case. But we have to face up to reality.
John