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Hear, hear, Sue, At a time, when the Government wishes to dismantle the welfare state do we not have enough enemies who we should reserve our venom for, rather than keep focusing inwards at our own 'comradely' ranks and psychology. Psychology is a powerful tool, was it not used successfully in the Western world to turn our societies into shopping arcades, surely we should be able to use such a powerful scientific instrument to achieve something more positive, based on egalitarianism, non-exploitation and respect for the environment, Greta Sykes ________________________________ From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sue Roffey [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 25 October 2010 03:59 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] Craig's challenge Couldn't agree more. I wonder how many there are like me, who work in community and educational settings, read posts regularly but rarely contribute because I don't relish the chance of being ridiculed, sneered at or otherwise put down. This is the sort of behaviour you often see from politicians who want to silence or belittle the opposition. It is what people with power do to others to ensure they don't have a voice. If we are interested in changing how people think about issues, how we engage in debate matters, including with each other. Would have thought that was pretty basic. Sue Roffey On 25/10/2010, at 1:28 PM, Erica Brostoff wrote: Dear All, I would like to point out to all, including David and Craig that personal courtesy IS one of the issues in a community list. Courtesy IS in fact a question of addressing the issues, and that is precisely what did NOT happen when I first joined this discussion list. It is what to a certain extent is NOT happening at the moment also. This is the principal reason I continue to contribute as I was so appalled at the level of interaction and lack of debate. I posted some information which some members have written on the discussion list that they found helpful. Others, specifically David and Craig wrote PERSONAL criticisms, despite what David is now saying. One was that failure or difficulties "were probably my fault"(Craig) and that I should read Foucault (David). The reason I have persisted with this list is that I am an academic myself after a fashion, and the initial level of response was abyssmal,uninformative and personal. You might just as well say to someone in a clinical context, read Freud, or Jung - it is pretty meaningless without specifying what aspect was relevant. Furthermore, the response was on a personal level, and this is supposed to be a community discussion list. I was not the only person involved in the project we undertook, which was some research on our estate, there was a committee of about twelve people, all frustrated by our dealings with the local council. A community psychology response would have been to suggest how we individually and collectively might have acted differently, in my opinion. Reflecting further on Craig's most recent post, when people get together it does not mean all is plain sailing, and there ARE issues of conflict of personality and interest when practical issues are discussed. How to resolve these ARE psychological questions. There are also questions of language. One of them is the word "political". If that were to be deconstructed, there are at least two issues embedded in it, people and power. If the debate was centred around these two and possibly also context, it might be possible to make this psychologically meaningful. The least unsatisfactory solution is to use psychological knowledge to facilitate people in achieving their community aims, which is pretty broad. Reading an article about Elton John this week,, it was interesting to me that he stated that he did on a couple of occasions consciously engage with those with contrary opinions on sexuality and has won over some opponents to support some of his positions on AIDS, homosexual marriage and the like. It suggests that community psychology might mean coming out of entrenched positions. I have been trying to find out what IS regarded as community psychology for some time, from this list as it is practiced and believed in, by contributors and not from a past "authority". I am impressed by some of the contributions, which offer something substantive (work done, and civilised exchange) and also some meaningful theory where it is appropriate. So perhaps David could post what he feels would be the least unsatisfactory solution in community psychology. Who could disagree with this proposition? E On 24 Oct 2010, at 21:49, David Fryer wrote: To read Craig's earlier message and then to discuss rudeness, intentions and interpersonal ethics is to get distracted and itself to stifle critical debate. The psy complex is often protected from critique by deflection of attention from the message to the 'character' of the messenger and / or the way the message is delivered. The more important issue than Craig's manners is, surely, discussion from a critical standpoint of Craig's challenge that he has "seen nothing that Comm Psychs do that isn't a mix of sociology / politics and direct action that is surpassed by trade unionists, local people getting together and setting up a crèche etc, etc."? To meet Craig's challenge, within the frame of reference Craig set up, would, presumably, be to point to some exemplary community psychology which goes beyond "a mix of sociology/politics and direct action." Others might wish to do that but personally I would prefer to refuse Craig's frame of reference since I think sociology is as problematic as psychology, there is no position which is not political and the distinction between direct and indirect action is problematic too. The real challenge, it seems to me, is not to find the least unsatisfactory current manifestation of community psychology but to agree what a satisfactory manifestation would be and to construct it. David ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum:http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed:http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK ___________________________________ The Community Psychology List has a new website/blog at: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/ There is a threaded discussion forum: http://www.communitypsychology.co.uk/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi There is a twitter feed: http://twitter.com/CommPsychUK To post on the website blog, forum or twitter feed, contact Grant or David at the email addresses below. David Fryer ([log in to unmask]) or Grant Jeffrey ([log in to unmask]) To unsubscribe or to change your details on this COMMUNITYPSYCHUK list, visit the website: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=COMMUNITYPSYCHUK