For what it is worth, I agree also -
reluctant to mess too much with main rubric before AGM vote
Russell Ecob
Ecob Consulting
07791956934
0141-649-9354
www.ecob-consulting.com
From:
Sent: 03 September 2010 09:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
I agree entirely.
David Elliman
David Elliman
Consultant in Community Child Health
GOSH@Haringey
3rd
WC1N 3BD
Office: 020 7405 9200 ext. 5137
Fax: 020 7242 4901
>>> "Wells, Julian" <[log in to unmask]>
03/09/2010 08:43 >>>
Like other respondents, I see no need at all for the proposed new statement,
and find it objectionable on the grounds that it deprives RadStats not only of
its radical nature, but of any reason for independent existence.
Best wishes,
Julian Wells
Dr Julian Wells
Acting Director of Studies
staff web-page: http://fass.kingston.ac.uk/staff/cv.php?staffnum=287
personal web-site: http://staffnet.kingston.ac.uk/~ku32530
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
KT1 2EE
+44 (0)20 8417 2341
________________________________________
From:
Sent: 02 September 2010 18:37
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [RADSTATS] New Radstats wording
David
I personally would find it useful (even if it is something I have already been
told) if you could briefly say why it is felt that the current aims need
modifying. (I recall some discussions at the AGM, but I do not recall the
details.)
Thanks
JOHN BIBBY
On 2 September 2010 17:58, Ted Harding
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
wrote:
Me too!
More explicitly: The current Radical Statistics Statement (quoted
by David Gordon in reply to David Manley) gives an excellent broad
overview of the aims and spirit of RadStats. The list of what
"RadStats seeks to" that David Manley gives is a useful set of
examples of specific approaches to various aspects of RadStats'
global aims. These examples highlight the rôles of inquiry, rigour,
independence and criticism.
Therefore the latter complement and inform the former, while the
former emphasise our motives and aims -- "where we are coming from".
I therefore think that both should be there.
Ted.
On 02-Sep-10 16:29:08, Price, Debora wrote:
> I agree.
> Debbie
>
> ***
> Debora Price,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
Behalf Of Vassilis Monastiriotis
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:25
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> Same here!
>
> ===============================================
> Dr Vassilis Monastiriotis
> Hellenic Observatory, European Institute, LSE
> email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> ===============================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:23
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> I was going to say the same. Now I have
> Jonathan Rosenhead
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Nick Clark
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:15
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> I agree with David - and would have said the same earlier if I had
> received the original e-mail. This seems to me to be a particularly bad
> time to be retreating into blandness.
> Nick Clark
> Senior Research Fellow
> Working Lives Research Institute
>
>
>
>
> EC3N 2EY
>
> +44 (0)207 320 3019
>
> www.workinglives.org<http://www.workinglives.org>
>
>
> Professor David Gordon wrote, On 02/09/2010 15:10:
>> Dear David
>>
>> Thank you for the clarification.
>>
>> If the new wording is adopted then I presume that Radstats will no
>> longer aim to use of statistics 'as part of campaigns for
progressive
>
>> social change' or in 'helping build a more free, democratic and
>> egalitarian society' or continue to be interested in 'The power
>> structures within which statistical and research workers are
employed
>
>> and which control the work and how it is used', etc.
>>
>> What then is the point of Radsats? and how would it differ in any
>> substantial way from the Royal Statistical Society? If Radical
>> Statistics is no longer 'radical' why should it not just wind itself
>> up and merge with some professional and/or academic organisation?
>>
>> What part of the proposed text does the Troika believe to be
>> 'radical'? I am unclear why the Troika seems to be proposing to remove
>
>> most of what is 'radical' from the aims of 'Radical Statistics'?
Why
>> is a new 'mission statement' needed?
>>
>> I would personally prefer to keep the old text rather than replace it
>> with the new proposal.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> David Gordon
>>
>>
>> --On 02 September 2010 14:49 +0100 David Manley
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
wrote:
>>
>>> Dear David,
>>>
>>> At present, the Troika have not got plans to change the second
>>> statement,
>>> just the first. I will include your response in the discussions
that
> the
>>> Troika have once all the responses have been collated!
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Dr. David Manley
>>> Centre for Housing Research
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tel: ++44(0)1334 462383, Fax: ++44(0)1334463949, Email:
>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>> Links: ESRC Seminar Series: www.neighbourhoodeffects.org<http://www.neighbourhoodeffects.org>
>>>
>>> Centre for Housing
Research: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr<http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The
>>> SC013532
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Professor David Gordon
[mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>>> Sent: 02 September 2010 14:48
>>> To: David Manley
>>> Cc: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>>>
>>> Dear David
>>>
>>> Just to clarify, are the Troike proposing to delete the current
'What
> is
>>> Radical Statistics' statement (<http://www.radstats.org.uk/about.htm>
>
>>> and
>>> also below) and replace it with the new text in your e-mail
(below)?
>>>
>>> The proposed text is fairly unobjectionable but it is not
very
>>> 'Radical', I would think that the Royal Statistical Society
or even
> the
>>> Statistics Commission could also have the new text as their
'mission
>>> statement'!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> David Gordon
>>>
>>> 'The Radical Statistics Group, usually abbreviated to Radstats,
was
>>> formed in 1975 as part of the radical science movement
associated
> with
>>> the establishment of the British Society for Social
Responsibility
> in
>>> Science (BSSRS).
>>>
>>> The researchers and statisticians who started Radstats shared a
> common
>>> concern about the political implications of their work and an
> awareness
>>> of the actual and potential misuse of statistics. Sadly,
neither the
>>> BSSRS nor other organizations affiliated to the BSSRS,
survived the
> 18
>>> years of Conservative rule from 1979 to 1997.
>>>
>>> RadStats is now independent of any other organisation. Members are
>>> 'radical' in being committed to helping build a more free,
democratic
>
>>> and
>>> egalitarian society. Members of Radstats are concerned at the
extent
> to
>>> which official statistics reflect governmental rather than social
>>> purposes. Our particular concerns are:
>>>
>>> * The mystifying use of technical language
to disguise social
>>> problems as technical ones
>>> * The lack of control by the community
over the aims of
> statistical
>>> investigations, the way these are conducted and the use of the
>>> information produced
>>> * The power structures within which
statistical and research
> workers
>>> are employed and which control the work and how it is used
>>> * The fragmentation of social problems
into specialist fields,
>>> obscuring connectedness
>>>
>>> Radstats members believe that statistics can be used as part of
>>> campaigns
>>> for progressive social change - just as they were used to support
>>> measures that led to improvements in public health in the
19th
>>> century.'
>>>
>>>
>>> The Home page of the website also has the following statement
>>>
>>> 'We believe that statistics can be used to support radical
campaigns
> for
>>> progressive social change. Statistics should inform, not drive
> policies.
>>> Social problems should not be disguised by technical language.'
>>>
>>> Is the Troika proposing to also replace this with the new text?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --On 01 September 2010 10:35 +0100 David Manley
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Radstat Members,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those of you who were at the Annual Conference in February
will
>>>> remember
>>>> that a proposal was put forward to change the wording of the
> Radstats
>>>> 'mission'. At the conference we were unable to agree on a new
vision
>>>> and the Troika (Along with a few others) were tasked with coming
up
>>>> with
>>>> something suitable. After quite a bit of deliberation a we
have
> devised
>>>> the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Radstats seeks to:
>>>> * Expose the assumptions which underpin decisions
about the
>>>> collection, analysis and interpretation of statistics.
>>>> * Ensure these assumptions are clearly and
publicly documented in
>>>> non-technical language and the statistics themselves should be
> publicly
>>>> available.
>>>> * Promote the documentation of the ways in which
statistics are
> used
>>>> to justify policy decisions and monitor policy implementation
>>>> * Encourage the acceptance that the wide range of
users of
> statistics
>>>> should have an influence on what is collected and how.
>>>> * Enable statisticians and other data analysts to
publish their
>>>> analyses independently of employers and funders, irrespective
of
>>>> whether
>>>> they work in government or other public sector organisations,
or in
> the
>>>> academic, commercial or voluntary sector.
>>>>
>>>> If you agree that the new version is suitable then you need
not do
>>>> anything. If, however, you are not happy with the new wording,
then
>>>> please let the Troika know, and proposal an alternative. We
would
>>>> like to
>>>> move foward with this quite quickly so please respond (if
necessary)
> by
>>>> 15th September.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Dr. David Manley
>>>>
>>>> Centre for Housing Research
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tel: ++44(0)1334 462383, Fax: ++44(0)1334463949, Email:
>>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> Links: ESRC Seminar Series: www.neighbourhoodeffects.org<http://www.neighbourhoodeffects.org>
>>>>
>>>> Centre for Housing
Research: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr<http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The
> No
>>>> SC013532
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> Dave Gordon
>>> Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> E-Mail: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> Tel: +44-(0)117-954 6761
>>> Fax: +44-(0)117-954 6756
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> Dave Gordon
>> Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> E-Mail:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Tel: +44-(0)117-954 6761
>> Fax: +44-(0)117-954 6756
>>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding)
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861
Date:
02-Sep-10
Time: 17:58:00
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