Thanks David. That accords with my recollection. So it seems that there is (1) an immediate need for something short and punchy to go in the new leaflet, along possibly with (2) a revision of the text which currently appears in each issue of the newsletter?

These are two different things, although evidently linked.

Can I suggest that we concentrate now on (1) i.e. a few choice phrases to go in the leaflet? This seems to be what is urgent.  However, what you were proposing (which seems to have led to some disagreements) relates to (2).

Let me set the ball rolling by proposing the following as a candidate for (1):

"Radical Statistics is a group of committed individuals who are interested in the ways in which statistics can advance the ideals of equality, democracy and ..... "

I'd welcome members' comments on the above.

JOHN BIBBY

PS: I realise this must all be a bit disappointing to the Troika, who have put a lot of work into this and now find their suggestions being bollocked. It couldn't happen in a plc! All I can say is we really do appreciate the work which you and others put in over the years, and I feel confident that the outcome of these discussions will eventually justify the time and energy that has been put into them.  Thanks again for all your good work.






On 3 September 2010 08:32, David Manley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

John,

 

In short, quite a while back the membership rates for Radstats changed and as a result, it was necessary to reprint the leaflets. It was suggested that we should take that opportunity to look at the wording as well as some thought that it was out of date. As you correctly note, new wording was presented at the AGM back in February. Although the membership rejected the AGM wording there was agreement that an update was needed, and the Troika were tasked with moving the process forward. And, this is where we are today.

 

David.

 

___________________________________________________

Dr. David Manley

Centre for Housing Research
School of Geography and Geosciences
University of St Andrews

Irvine Building, North Street, St Andrews, Fife, KY16 9AL
Tel: ++44(0)1334 462383, Fax: ++44(0)1334463949, Email: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]

Links: ESRC Seminar Series: www.neighbourhoodeffects.org
       School of Geography and Geosciences: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/gg
       Centre for Housing Research: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr
      


The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No SC013532

 

From: email list for Radical Statistics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Bibby
Sent: 02 September 2010 18:38
To: [log in to unmask]


Subject: Re: New Radstats wording

 

David

 

I personally would find it useful (even if it is something I have already been told) if you could briefly say why it is felt that the current aims need modifying. (I recall some discussions at the AGM, but I do not recall the details.)

 

Thanks

 

JOHN BIBBY

 

On 2 September 2010 17:58, Ted Harding <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Me too!
More explicitly: The current Radical Statistics Statement (quoted
by David Gordon in reply to David Manley) gives an excellent broad
overview of the aims and spirit of RadStats. The list of what
"RadStats seeks to" that David Manley gives is a useful set of
examples of specific approaches to various aspects of RadStats'
global aims. These examples highlight the rôles of inquiry, rigour,
independence and criticism.

Therefore the latter complement and inform the former, while the
former emphasise our motives and aims -- "where we are coming from".
I therefore think that both should be there.

Ted.


On 02-Sep-10 16:29:08, Price, Debora wrote:
> I agree.
> Debbie
>
> ***
> Debora Price, Institute of Gerontology, King's College London
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email list for Radical Statistics
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vassilis Monastiriotis
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:25
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> Same here!
>
> ===============================================
> Dr Vassilis Monastiriotis
> Hellenic Observatory, European Institute, LSE
> email: [log in to unmask]
> ===============================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email list for Radical Statistics
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:23
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> I was going to say the same. Now I have
> Jonathan Rosenhead
> London School of Economics
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email list for Radical Statistics
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Nick Clark
> Sent: 02 September 2010 16:15
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>
> I agree with David - and would have said the same earlier if I had
> received the original e-mail. This seems to me to be a particularly bad
> time to be retreating into blandness.
> Nick Clark
> Senior Research Fellow
> Working Lives Research Institute
>
> London Metropolitan University
> 31 Jewry Street
> London
> EC3N 2EY
>
> +44 (0)207 320 3019
>
> www.workinglives.org
>
>
> Professor David Gordon wrote, On 02/09/2010 15:10:
>> Dear David
>>
>> Thank you for the clarification.
>>
>> If the new wording is adopted then I presume that Radstats will no
>> longer aim to use of statistics  'as part of campaigns for progressive
>
>> social change' or in 'helping build a more free, democratic and
>> egalitarian society' or continue to be interested in 'The power
>> structures within which statistical and research workers  are employed
>
>> and which control the work and how it is used', etc.
>>
>> What then is the point of Radsats? and how would it differ in any
>> substantial way from the Royal Statistical Society?  If Radical
>> Statistics is no longer 'radical' why should it not just wind itself
>> up and merge with some professional and/or academic organisation?
>>
>> What part of the proposed text does the Troika believe to be
>> 'radical'? I am unclear why the Troika seems to be proposing to remove
>
>> most of what is 'radical' from the aims of 'Radical Statistics'?  Why
>> is a new 'mission statement' needed?
>>
>> I would personally prefer to keep the old text rather than replace it
>> with the new proposal.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> David Gordon
>>
>>
>> --On 02 September 2010 14:49 +0100 David Manley
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear David,
>>>
>>> At present, the Troika have not got plans to change the second
>>> statement,
>>> just the first. I will include your response in the discussions that
> the
>>> Troika have once all the responses have been collated!
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Dr. David Manley
>>> Centre for Housing Research
>>> School of Geography and Geosciences
>>> University of St Andrews
>>>
>>> Irvine Building, North Street, St Andrews, Fife, KY16 9AL
>>> Tel: ++44(0)1334 462383, Fax: ++44(0)1334463949, Email:
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Links: ESRC Seminar Series: www.neighbourhoodeffects.org
>>>        School of Geography and Geosciences: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/gg
>>>        Centre for Housing Research: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland : No
>>> SC013532
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Professor David Gordon [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: 02 September 2010 14:48
>>> To: David Manley
>>> Cc: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: New Radstats wording
>>>
>>> Dear David
>>>
>>> Just to clarify, are the Troike proposing to delete the current 'What
> is
>>> Radical Statistics' statement (<http://www.radstats.org.uk/about.htm>
>
>>> and
>>> also below) and replace it with the new text in your e-mail (below)?
>>>
>>> The proposed text is fairly unobjectionable  but it is not very
>>> 'Radical',  I would think that the Royal Statistical Society or even
> the
>>> Statistics  Commission could also have the new text as their 'mission
>>> statement'!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> David Gordon
>>>
>>> 'The Radical Statistics Group, usually abbreviated to Radstats, was
>>> formed  in 1975 as part of the radical science movement associated
> with
>>> the  establishment of the British Society for Social Responsibility
> in
>>> Science  (BSSRS).
>>>
>>> The researchers and statisticians who started Radstats shared a
> common
>>> concern about the political implications of their work and an
> awareness
>>> of  the actual and potential misuse of statistics. Sadly, neither the
>>> BSSRS nor  other organizations affiliated to the BSSRS, survived the
> 18
>>> years of  Conservative rule from 1979 to 1997.
>>>
>>> RadStats is now independent of any other organisation. Members are
>>> 'radical' in being committed to helping build a more free, democratic
>
>>> and
>>> egalitarian society. Members of Radstats are concerned at the extent
> to
>>> which official statistics reflect governmental rather than social
>>> purposes.  Our particular concerns are:
>>>
>>>     * The mystifying use of technical language to disguise social
>>> problems  as technical ones
>>>     * The lack of control by the community over the aims of
> statistical
>>> investigations, the way these are conducted and the use of the
>>> information  produced
>>>     * The power structures within which statistical and research
> workers
>>> are employed and which control the work and how it is used
>>>     * The fragmentation of social problems into specialist fields,
>>> obscuring connectedness
>>>
>>> Radstats members believe that statistics can be used as part of
>>> campaigns
>>> for progressive social change - just as they were used to support
>>> measures  that led to improvements in public health in the 19th
>>> century.'
>>>
>>>
>>> The Home page of the website also has the following statement
>>>
>>> 'We believe that statistics can be used to support radical campaigns
> for
>>> progressive social change. Statistics should inform, not drive
> policies.
>>> Social problems should not be disguised by technical language.'
>>>
>>> Is the Troika proposing to also replace this with the new text?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --On 01 September 2010 10:35 +0100 David Manley
> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Radstat Members,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those of you who were at the Annual Conference in February will
>>>> remember
>>>> that a proposal was put forward to change the wording of the
> Radstats
>>>> 'mission'. At the conference we were unable to agree on a new vision
>>>> and the Troika (Along with a few others) were tasked with coming up
>>>> with
>>>> something suitable. After quite a bit of deliberation a we have
> devised
>>>> the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Radstats seeks to:
>>>>   * Expose the assumptions which underpin decisions about the
>>>> collection, analysis and interpretation of statistics.
>>>>   * Ensure these assumptions are clearly and publicly documented in
>>>> non-technical language and the statistics themselves should be
> publicly
>>>> available.
>>>>   * Promote the documentation of the ways in which statistics are
> used
>>>> to justify policy decisions and monitor policy implementation
>>>>   * Encourage the acceptance that the wide range of users of
> statistics
>>>> should have an influence on what is collected and how.
>>>>   * Enable statisticians and other data analysts to publish their
>>>> analyses independently of employers and funders, irrespective of
>>>> whether
>>>> they work in government or other public sector organisations, or in
> the
>>>> academic, commercial or voluntary sector.
>>>>
>>>> If you agree that the new version is suitable then you need not do
>>>> anything. If, however, you are not happy with the new wording, then
>>>> please let the Troika know, and proposal an alternative. We would
>>>> like to
>>>> move foward with this quite quickly so please respond (if necessary)
> by
>>>> 15th September.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Dr. David Manley
>>>>
>>>> Centre for Housing Research
>>>> School of Geography and Geosciences
>>>> University of St Andrews
>>>>
>>>> Irvine Building, North Street, St Andrews, Fife, KY16 9AL
>>>> Tel: ++44(0)1334 462383, Fax: ++44(0)1334463949, Email:
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>> Links: ESRC Seminar Series: www.neighbourhoodeffects.org
>>>>        School of Geography and Geosciences: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/gg
>>>>        Centre for Housing Research: www.st-andrews.ac.uk/chr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland :
> No
>>>> SC013532
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>> Dave Gordon
>>> Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
>>> University of Bristol
>>> 8 Priory Road
>>> Bristol BS8 1TZ, UK
>>>
>>> E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
>>> Tel: +44-(0)117-954 6761
>>> Fax: +44-(0)117-954 6756
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> Dave Gordon
>> Townsend Centre for International Poverty Research
>> University of Bristol
>> 8 Priory Road
>> Bristol BS8 1TZ, UK
>>
>> E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
>> Tel: +44-(0)117-954 6761
>> Fax: +44-(0)117-954 6756
>>
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <[log in to unmask]>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861
Date: 02-Sep-10                                       Time: 17:58:00
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