Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 9:15
AM
Subject: Re: Council for Learning Outside
the Classroom approves Creationist Attraction
Dear all,
I have read this debate with an enormous amount of interest, not for the
points about whether Noah's Ark is a good or bad thing (however you decide to
decide this) but for the problem it has raised over how we go about
categorising our information into science and non-science. I have very many
scientist friends and family, most of them always questioning what exactly it
is we _know_ from empirical measurement and observation and what exactly it is
we don't know and just estimate or guess at. And yet the uncertainties of
modern western science are not always presented to the public in whatever
forum (and we don't really question this).
Where subjects like creationism (yet another -ism many learning providers
deal poorly with of whatever persuasion) 'fit in', is to me a non-issue. Fora
should exist where scientific, evolutionary elements of human and earth
history are discussed with creationisms, beyond the nutsy approach taken by
Noah's Ark. I am sure they have existed in some places, why don't we see or
hear more of them so sites like Noah's Ark can be shown up for what they
really are? We don't need to patronise all members of the public, young or
old, by worrying that they are going to be misled even if they read misleading
information.
Where we came from is a fundamental question we have all asked,
particularly as children. Empirical science does not know everything and there
is no capacity to know what you don't know. All those unknown unknowns.
Similarly, the kind of biblical creationism we most often hear about in the
media is only one (and often skewed) interpretation of a world view held by
people past and present; what about all the other creation stories (see
Sumerian for example), some of which echo has later been discovered through
the theory of evolution, or theories of evolution, should that be?
Learning and education quality marks are subjective, no matter how many
guidelines and parameters you set, as the subject matter is inescapable. I
cannot see how you can be neutral about the subject of learning. If one was to
give the cliched example of, 'what about if the BNP had an education
programme'... etc... what would those respondents who said that the assessment
of learning quality should be neutral think then? Why do we have to think so
mechanically about learning and its categories? Surely learning outside the
classroom should break out of the constraints of the National Curriculum which
itself has been shown to be a more than imperfect way of teaching in many
subjects, overly compartmentalised, and lacking the encouragement of
individual thought and analysis in some areas.
In short, what this debate so far has shown me is that what really needs
discussing is not whether creationism as science is a wolf in sheep's clothing
but whether as learners and educators ourselves we have stopped to question
our massive assumptions about both.
I suspect this is a gauntlet that no one will pick up ;-)
All the best,
Tehmina
On 28 July 2010 20:40, Ian Simmons
<[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
This is exactly what caused me to voice concern
in the first place. Science is quite clear, there is no scientific evidence
of any kind for creationism, and immense amounts for evolution. This isn't a
matter for showing different sides and letting people make up their
mind, it's that as science one is demonstrably wrong, so has absolutely
no educational value. Evolution is on the national curriculum and
somewhere that presents itself as providing science education yet then tells
people evolution is not scientifically valid cannot be said to be providing
a 'good quality educational experience' which the LOtC badge claims to
certify. Noah's Ark's on site interpretation, I am told, includes
things like a scale model of the ark
itself, that shows how giraffes were housed next to T. Rex (presumably as
they're both rather tall), and the interpretation board in the monkey
house that lists the top ten reasons that monkeys are different to humans
(and so cannot possibly be related). with number 10 being "Humans have the
unique ability to worship God" and their website contains furious ad
hominem attacks on Darwin and other scientists and generally denies
evolution has any validity whatsoever . Presented as a religious
experience, no problem, claiming to provide science education, big problem.
As our
centre is LOtC badged, I know that teachers, whatever the LOtC's intentions,
view this as at least in part an indication that what they will get is of
high educational standards, as well as meeting practical safety etc
standards and while I wouldn't want them to necessarily get into the
business of vetting the quality of what is taught, I would like
to think that to be considered worthy of being certified as a quality place
for learning outside the classroom, an organisation should at least not
contradict the national curriculum in what it
communicates.
IAN SIMMONS
I can't understand why people are frightened of new
ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones - John Cage
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 3:40
PM
Subject: Re: Council for Learning
Outside the Classroom approves Creationist Attraction
OK if it is presented as a
question of faith. The problem arises when it is presented as a matter of
science, which calls into question whether it is good science and good
education which is exactly what LOTC is designed to vet
Lalage
Lalage Grundy
Surrey Heritage Team
Manager for Learning, Museums and Partnership
130 Goldsworth Road,
Woking, GU21 6ND
Tel 01483 518782
I agree Robin, it's not what LOTC is there to do, and anyway sounds
like
they're not claiming there's is the absolute truth.
Diane
Diane Taylor
Audience Development
Officer
Harrogate Museums & Arts
Mercer Art Gallery,
Swan
Road, Harrogate
HG1 2SA
Tel: 01423 556188
Fax: 01423
556130
www.harrogate.gov.uk/museums
Exhibitions at
Harrogate Museums & Arts
Royal Pump Room Museum
"Egyptology:
Science Investigation" - discover some of our Ancient
Egyptian
treasures. See how science is helping us learn more about
our
Ancient Egyptian objects.
"Well Travelled" - Journey to many
parts of the world in our exhibition
of objects from far-flung
places.Until 5 September.
Mercer Art Gallery
'The Secret Garden'
- works from Harrogate's fine art collection in an
exhibition inspired
by the classic children's novel. Until 6 June.
'Treasures of
the Mercer' - Favourites from the fine art collection.
Until 25
July.
Knaresborough Castle.
Visit the King's Tower, dark dungeon
and secret underground tunnel,
Find out about Knaresborough's past and
colourful characters. Open from
Good Friday 2010 daily.
Please ring or visit our website for further details of our
varied
children's & adults activities
programme.
>>> Robin Clutterbuck <[log in to unmask]>
27/07/2010
16:36 >>>
I disagree with Richard and Ian's
response. Why is it OK to visit a
place
of worship where
belief and faith are part of the deal, but not OK to
go to
a zoo
where some of the staff have beliefs of their own?
The
techniques
used by good education services at religious
sites aim to elicit
feelings of
personal reflection in a setting
designed for people to think about
these
things - so why not in a
zoo where you're right in front of the
'evidence'
and the debate can
be even closer to the reality?
I looked at the Noah's Ark Farm
Park's website and they explicitly say
that
evolution and creation
are areas open to debate, and that while they
have
their own views,
it's up to the individual to come to their own
conclusions:
'In our
view the evidence currently known points to a
‘both/and’
situation
(creation and evolution) rather than
‘either/or’' ... we encourage
interested readers to explore the issues
for themselves'. Ian's Life
Centre
runs a KS4 workshop in
which students 'use dialogue activities to
explore
Darwin’s theory
and the historical ideas behind it and decide for
themselves
how
modern day criticisms of evolution should be answered' - not
that
different?
Noah's Ark Farm Park lists a range of
educational workshops and
activities
based around National
Curriculum in Science and there's no suggestion
that
these workshops
actually morph into something else when the schools
arrive.
It
appears that the Farm Park was chosen as one of the 10%
of
self-assessed
sites to receive an inspection, and presumably this
found that the
service
was as described in its publicity, otherwise
that would in itself be a
reason to lose the quality badge
status.
However the main point, as expressed in the CLOtC's reply,
is that the
Quality Badge is about processes, not content. The
Farm obviously
reached
the standard required and was awarded the
badge. It's not up to the
CLOtC
to discriminate between
different applicants on anything other than
quality
of
provision.
For these reasons, while on a personal level I refute
Creationism, I
can't
see a reason why Noah's Ark Farm Park should
lose its badge.
Robin Clutterbuck
White Rook Projects
www.whiterook.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: List for discussion of
issues in museum education in the UK.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
Behalf Of Richard Ellam
Sent: 27 July 2010 14:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Council for Learning Outside the Classroom
approves
Creationist
Attraction
Dear
All
List members considering whether to seek the Learning
Outside the
Classroom Quality Badge may be interested in, and
conc
erned about,
the
CLOtC's decision to award their Quality
Badge to the Noah's Ark Farm
Park at
Wraxall, near
Bristol.
The Noah's Ark Farm is an explicitly and
agressively Creationist
folly,
which seeks to mislead children by
teaching them the literal truth of
the
biblical account of creation
and explicitly denies that evolution can
explain the diversity of life
on Earth.
Quite apart from any wider concerns about the
validity of these
opinions,
the teaching of Creationism is contrary
to the requirements of the
National
Curriculum.
A
number of people involved in science communication and
informal
science
education including my colleague Ian Simmons from
the Centre for Life
in
Newcastle are very concerned about the fact
that CLOtC has accredited
Noah's
Ark in the first place, and (as the
correspondence below shows) doesn't
seem
to understand that it might
have made a mistake in the second.
If you share our
concerns, can I ask you to join with us in writing
to the
CLOtC to
express your concern.
The CLOtC can be contacted via [log in to unmask]
Thanks
Richard.
Richard
Ellam
L M Interactive
Science Shows and Hands-On
Stuff
[log in to unmask]
Begin forwarded
message:
From: Ian Simmons <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 27
July 2010 11:49:45 BDT
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:
[PSCI-COM] Council for Learning Outside the Classroom
Reply-To: "psci-com: on public engagement with science"
<[log in to unmask]>
Centre for Life is accredited by the Council for Learning
Outside
the
Classroom with their Learning Outside the Classroom
Quality Badge, but
I was
worried to find out this week that they’d
also given this status to
the Noah
’s Ark Zoo – a creationist outfit
near Bristol, so I wrote to them
expressing my concerns that we are put
on a par with such a dubious
body,
and got this reply
“Dear Mr Simmon, s
Many thanks for your email
concerning the recent award of the
Learning
Outside the Classroom
Quality Badge to Noah's Ark Zoo Farm.
The criteria for
awarding the LOtC Quality Badge are that the
organisation must offer
good quality learning outside the classroom
and
manage risk
effectively. The Council for Learning Outside the Classroom
is
very
committed to equality and we will award the Quality Badge to
an
organisation that can demonstrate that it meets these criteria;
past
awards
have included Interfaith Kirklees and Canterbury
Cathedral without any
implied endorsement of their religious
base.
CLOtC believes that an important aim of learning
outside the
classroom
is allowing children and young people access
to education that
challenges
assumptions and allows them to
experience a range of viewpoints; giving
them
the tools needed to be
proactive in their own learning.
CLOtC is an
independent charity and I would like to stress that
the
operation of
the LOtC Quality Badge scheme receives no
government
funding.
Kind Regards
Amy”
Which concerns me even more, such that I am
considering asking to
be
delisted, as I think giving them a stamp of
providing ‘good quality
education’ devalues us by association, if any
of your organizations
are LOtC
registered and share my concern I
would urge you to make it known to
them –
their website
is
http://www.lotc.org.uk/The-LOTC-quality-badge/The-LOTC-quality-badge
IAN
Ian
Simmons
Science Communication Director
Centre for Life
Management Suite
Times Square
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1
4EP
Tel: +44191 2438250
Fax: +44191
2438201
Email: [log in to unmask]
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