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Hello Damien: I have to agree with you on that! I too live in the states and I see way more opportunities for esoteric studies abroad. I was just thinking this morning what a shame it is. I see so many lectures, seminars, workshops and classes about magic abroad and so little in the US. Maybe it's time to put our heads together and do something about it to change that. ;) Dayna On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Damien <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > As an occult-oriented scholar, working in the states, I'd have to say I've > seen more serious opportunities for accredited scholarship presented in > Europe and the UK than anywhere in the US. > > --Damien > On shaded wings drift > FireDark discoveries > Soul Architecture. > > --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Marie <[log in to unmask]>* wrote: > > > From: Marie <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] magic and empiricism > To: [log in to unmask] > Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 11:40 AM > > Hello, > > Do you find the attitude towards esoteric studies varies a lot country to > country? I'm in England and I don't see much serious interest here. > Opportunities for academic study are very scarce and I think you have to > have a degree in psychology first. > > If science is interested, how do you deal with the sociopolitical > short-sightedness? > > Marie > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jesper Aagaard Petersen <http:[log in to unmask]> > *To:* [log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 08, 2010 4:00 PM > *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] magic and empiricism > > Sorry - went to Marie and not the list > > Marie, > > The good thing about atheism is that you (and I) can actually represent it > in other terms than Dawkins. Very nice. > > Regarding power, you misrepresent what I wrote: *Everybody* wields and is > effected by ideological matters and power struggles, so it is definitely not > a one-way street. If anything, both scientists and "magicians" etc. seems to > be pressured by economic and political arguments from an entirely different > sector than both, namely the sociopolitical sphere, which includes the most > powerful magic of all, popularist short-term thinking. FNORD. > > I don't know who "they" are, but it seems a sizeable group of academics see > esoteric studies as anything but a joke. But I see historical studies and > qualitative studies of esotericists and texts as more viable than e.g. > criticized statistical studies on psi power, a position I seem to co-inhabit > with Jake. > > Best, > > Jesper. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Marie > *Sent:* Thursday, July 08, 2010 4:44 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] magic and empiricism > > Hello again, > > I do not support or reject Uri Geller, I know very little about him apart > from the bits I quoted earlier. I just got the feeling that he had been > conveniently, and universally disposed of, on the basis of one cock up. > > I don't like the way Richard Dawkins is trying to define atheism in his > terms. We only have one thing in common - not believing in a god - we can't > be made into a collective movement based on the 'one thing none of us can > do'. > > "And of course all idealist philosophizing in these matters should remember > to reconnect to politics and power that infringe upon or even determine > religious and scientific claims anyway" by Jasper. > Regarding this power; who influences who? It isn't completely a one way > street is it? What interest do they have in reinforcing the notion that > esoteric studies are a joke? Are they not human, are merely just too human? > > Marie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Sebastián <http:[log in to unmask]> > *To:* [log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 08, 2010 2:13 PM > *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] magic and empiricism > > I believe that Empiricism and Magic are strongly related though it is not > the same to say that Magic IS the same as Science. In my anthropology thesis > in which I have explored Samael Aun Weor's gnosticism > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael_Aun_Weor>in Argentina, I came across > with a strong notion of empiricism as a way of "proving by yourself" the > effects of the exercises suggested by these teachings. > > I wrote about this issue and pointed out as part of post-postmodernist > worldview in which there might occured some kind of "massification of the > scientific methodology" helped by the autonomic and human potential movement > from the second half of 20th century. The whole hypothesis was based in that > the supposedly "disenchantment of the world" in the first half of the 20th > century might leaded up to these autonomy movements in which was involved > and boosted the process of rationalization and individualization pointed out > by Durkheim and Weber. > > > Sebastian > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 4:21 AM, kaostar <[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > >> sorry this went to just Marie first go, not whole list >> >> from SSOTBME, Lionel Snell, one of the *best* books i've ever read about >> how >> to compare science and magic >> >> science hates the fleeting singularity, it revolves around test-repaet >> validity, and magic cannot then be scientific, or often open to scientific >> >> testing as for the most part it involves one-offs (that is my clumsy >> precis, >> not a quote - the book is far more elegant) >> >> Randi is as dogmatic and (oddly enough 'religious'- about his scepticism) >> as >> any pro-psychic powers spokesperson, or as Richard Dawkins is that there >> is no >> god. >> >> I've spoken to Mr Geller on the phone and he's among the people i'd put on >> a >> list of 'those who have got something really special' who i've met. Robert >> >> Lenkiewicz the (late) artist and probable magician was another. But how to >> >> define that and do anything with it within a scientific framework? Hard - >> and >> i'm a trained scientist; started out life in biomedics, which is test, >> retest, >> support hypothesis stuff... >> >> Dave E >> > > > > -- > "Your conscience is the measure of the honesty of your selfishness. Listen > to it carefully". > > -Richard Bach, The Messiah's > Handbook. Ilusions- > > > -- Dayna Winters Night Owl Writing Services http://www.freewebs.com/dayna_winters/