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Clive Durdle 4 Toronto Road Ilford Essex IG1 4RB 0208 554 5889 0794 198 8846 [log in to unmask] http://clivedurdle.wordpress.com/about/ http://web.me.com/clivedurdle I wish to develop the Renaissance concept of Opera, where people work together closely to resolve the issues they face, from a participatory, equal, just, sustainable and whole system perspective Clive Durdle MSc BA (Econ) FCIH Dip Soc. Studs Durdle Door Consulting
Sorry again but ....****************************************************** Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will go only to the sender of this message. If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's 'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to [log in to unmask] Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held by subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and past issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site www.radstats.org.uk. *******************************************************I've just looked up Russll's orioginal quote - it's atAs you can see, the word 'half-way' is redundant - his argument (that some will be (halfway) above the average and others will be below) holds even if the average is between the highest and lowest.JBOn 9 June 2010 11:28, John Bibby <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The Russell definition (mid-range - see below) is one definition of average but not necessarily the best. Mid-quartile or mid-decile is rather better (less sensitive).For masochists who may be interested, I did something on "axiomatisations of the average" in GMJ some time ago (see below)but I would not really recommend this.For the current poverty debate however, it does not matter which average we take. The important thing politically is to focus onx% times averageas the important threshold.Sticking with the current measure has advantages of statistical comparability, over both space and time, but is not sacrosanct.Other related issues:1. I like Clegg's "20 times" rule - max < 20 times the min - but what organisational unit does it relate to? and does it apply to private as well as public sector? There's also the issue of non-salary incomes and gains.2. I note that Spain has reduced all public service salaries by 5%. I could go along with a progressive variant of that e.g. "all salaries over £1000 per month are reduced by x%" where x% could start at 1% and increase monthly to a maximum (in order to ease the pain). I'm sure that Saint Vince has got this in his sights. (Why has he gone quiet?)3. I heard pensions being bashed this morning - are the buggers going for that now?4. What about wealth?“... the average, by definition, lies half-way between the best and the worst ... ” (Russell 1896: 19, footnote).
Bertrand Russell (1896/1965) "German Social Democracy", George Allen and Unwin, Woking and London
On 9 June 2010 09:48, Wells, Julian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Confusion over the basic measures of central tendency is not unheard of in (intellectually) high places, as well as political ones: here is Bertrand Russell:
“... the average, by definition, lies half-way between the best and the worst ... ” (Russell 1896: 19, footnote).
Bertrand Russell (1896/1965) "German Social Democracy", George Allen and Unwin, Woking and London
Although his empirical description of the party and its doings has its strengths (he notices that its practice was already reformist, despite the revolutionary rhetoric), the great man's self-assured aversion to dialectics leads him to dispense with the effort of engaging with its practitioners.
He sums up Capital as “tedious economico-Hegelian pedantry” (1896: 10), and opines that “the two later volumes add little to Marx’s system” (1896: 15, footnote); whatever one thinks of the work as a whole, few professional economists with any knowledge of the text would agree to the latter judgement.
Julian Wells
Dr Julian Wells
Acting Director of Studies
School of Economics
staff web-page: http://fass.kingston.ac.uk/staff/cv.php?staffnum=287
personal web-site: http://staffnet.kingston.ac.uk/~ku32530
Senior lecturer in economics
School of Economics
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
Kingston University
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From: email list for Radical Statistics [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martin Rathfelder [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 June 2010 09:13Subject: Re: [RADSTATS] A new approach to the median
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There are very few people in the UK who suffer from absolute poverty.
Mostly failed asylum seekers who are subject to an official destitution
policy - and won't appear on any statistics. Some people with mental
illness.
Most of the poor in the UK have a colour TV. Quite a few are
overweight. They probably have debts. People who are absolutely poor
don't have debts.
Yes relative poverty is a political issue. But it is a problem about
the rich.
Martin Rathfelder
Director
Socialist Health Association
22 Blair Road
Manchester
M16 8NS
0161 286 1926
www.sochealth.co.uk
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John Whittington wrote:
> At 08:09 09/06/2010 +0100, Martin Rathfelder wrote:
>> If the problems of poverty in the UK are about relative poverty, why
>> will reducing the incomes of the rich not help?
>
> That surely hits the nail on the head. IF the problems were about
> relative poverty, then that would, indeed, be the obvious solution.
>
> However, relative poverty (within a country) is really essentially a
> political/ psychological issue ('sour grapes'), not a humanitarian one
> - e.g.a person who can't afford to feed their children properly
> feeling aggrieved because others were in a much better position.
> Maybe their psychology would feel a bit better if one changed the
> situation such that no-one else could feed their children properly,
> either, but that's hardly a solution - and wouldn't result in an
> improvement in their children's nutrition!
>
> At the most basic level (virtually 'human rights' - access to adequate
> food, shelter, healthcare, protection, education etc.), the poverty
> that matters is surely absolute, not relative?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> John
>
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