Hi Mandy

That's an interesting point about energy to recycle lithium.  I don't know the answer to that, except it might be that recycling is actually fairly low down on the hierarchy - beneath reduce, reuse, and repair.  And maybe there are batteries that aren't made of lithium.

Thinking about this issue, I feel it would be easier to push the idea that we should travel by electric car, coach and train than by bicycle, because people have grown used to mobility, and in the developed world families have become very spread out (including living in different continents, which makes it very difficult - though the latest Zero Carbon Britain report <www.cat.org.uk/zcb2030.pdf> mentions planes powered by sustainable biofuels!)

Chris x

On 18/06/2010 17:31, A&M Meikle wrote:
Hi Chris - you mentioned a document, well I'm writing (or not writing!) a book(let) called Net Energy in a Nutshell. The reason that so many of the solutions don't add up is because we are used to the excessive surpluses of energy from oil. In the 1930s, investing 1 barrel of oil got 100 out - net energy of 99. Today, some of the lowest returning oilfields are down to 1 in, 3 out. Things like tar sands, corn ethanol & hydrogen are even worse. As we go further off shore or use tar sands etc we put more energy into each barrel extracted.
 
Re recycling lithium, yes but what are the energy costs? Someone made a good point about water, which some of the non-conventional oils use a lot of too. It's not just climate tipping points which are being reached (or worse), there's freshwater & fertile soil and all non-renewable minerals have their production peaks.
 
The point I was trying to make was that while promoting alternatives to combustion engines (or any other invention which requires cheap energy) we have to push the message of limits. I mentioned '40 years' as Limits to Growth came out in 1972 (I think) and we've been working really hard to prove it wrong - i.e. we act like there are no limits to growth! There are and the longer we deny this, the bigger the crash will be. Sorry, doomer speak, but I am at a loss as to what we can do (hence the book idea). To a real denier, rational argument is wasted. But even the biggest liar eventually sees reality all around them!
 
Mandy
 
http://mandymeikle.wordpress.com/
_________________________
 
“It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.”
- Charles Darwin
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Chris Keene
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">A&M Meikle
Cc: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [localsustuk] News Items from the USA re electric vehicles and solar pv plus Notes

Hi Mandy

Thanks for this thoughtful reply. 

I think you're right that we need to talk about having fewer cars as well as moving to electric, and maybe about lack of lithium, but note there is one big difference between lithium and oil - oil is not recyclable.

I think now is the time to unite around one message - get rid of the internal combustion engine.  Whether powered by oil or agrofuels it causes climate change, and electric vehicles are far more efficient.  Even if we call  for more use of public transport, that has to be powered somehow and fossil and agrofuels aren't the way, it has to be electricity or hydrogen produced renewably.  With the BP oil spill there can't be a better time to call for the replacement of the internal combustion engine

Regarding deniers, I think some of them cannot be reasoned with, either because they know the truth and are lying for the money provided by big oil, or are so committed to avoiding reality it's impossible to reason with them, but some we might be able to convince of the truth, and I'm curious to know what is the best strategy.  Might there be a possibility of bringing out a document 'Lies of the deniers' pointing out some simple incontrovertible instances where they have told blatant lies, in order to get people to distrust all they say?

Chris

On 18/06/2010 06:13, A&M Meikle wrote:
Hi Chris
I think we're all grasping at straws these days! I don't know the monetary costs of electric vs. petrol but don't forget the cost in resources of electric cars. We have to get away from replacing like with like in our messages to the mainstream. Electric cars, as far as I know, require lithium batteries. Where does the lithium come from? Bolivia has the world's largest untapped resources, unfortunately for Bolivia. When will lithium production peak? Then what?
 
I will definitely write something on my blog at some point as it's a really important topic - some electric vehicles, sure, but we need to get a message of doing more with less & that means that we don't all have an electric car or three! Expressing lifestyle changes in terms of money rather than carbon saved is always going to get through better to people including those who don't rate the environment as an important issue to them, so obviously that's a good general approach but no one knows the future costs of energy - electricity or fuel.
 
Also, we have to get a bit smarter at psychology - you will never "conquer the deniers" but we have to reason with them - good practice even if the reasoning is ignored - you'll never persuade everyone & change has to be voluntary (the addiction analogy works for me!). Denial is a nice work for lying. People lie about themselves & their surroundings & to each other all the time and at different scales. Climate Change is scary & some people's response is to lie and say it's not true. Peak oil is scary & some believe it's not a problem because we can replace the energy of fossil fuels with non-fossil alternatives. I don't believe that to be true either. Maybe I'm in denial? Maybe technology can save the day - maybe if we'd started 40 years ago it could have?
 
Mandy x
 
http://mandymeikle.wordpress.com/
____________________________
 
"A civilization is a society which adopts increasing complexity as a general strategy"
 - Joseph Tainter
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" moz-do-not-send="true">Chris Keene
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" moz-do-not-send="true">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [localsustuk] News Items from the USA re electric vehicles and solar pv plus Notes

It would be nice to know the average cost of driving a mile on electric and on petrol. I believe electric is much cheaper. But how much of the petrol cost is tax?  Would electric still be cheaper than petrol if taxed at the same rate?

The reason I ask is a campaigning point. All good campaigns have an enemy, and I know the oil companies have been buying up the patents for electric batteries and blocking their development.  If we could show the public how much they would save by having electric cars rather than petrol we could get them to really hate the oil companies, and just maybe get them to disbelieve the climate denial the oil industry has been funding.

Or am I just grasping at straws?  We must do something to conquer the deniers - only 19% of college educated Republics in the USA believe in anthropogenic global warming (and the more educated you are the less you are likely to believe, which suggests to me this is a function of the climate denial propaganda educated Republicans are exposed to)

Chris

On 17/06/2010 22:38, ferrand wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite"> 

4.7 Million EV Charging Units Expected Worldwide by 2015:

McClatchy/Tribune, June 7, 2010

http://www.energycentral.com/functional/news/news_detail.cfm?did=15795940

The first affordable mass-produced electric vehicles will hit the
streets of America later this year. Once the Nissan Leaf begins to make
its way from dealerships to consumers, the electric vehicle charging
revolution will begin. A new report by Pike Research reveals that there
will be an estimated 4.7 million EV charging units in operation
worldwide by 2015. Of these 4.7 million units, about 1 million will be
located here in the United States and the remainder elsewhere around the
world. One primary difference between the national and international
markets is location. The majority of charging stations in the United
States will be located at individual residences. The report indicates
that about two-thirds of EV charging equipment sales will be in the
residential sector. Americans are expected to prefer the convenience of
charging their vehicles at home where it will typically cost consumers
less than $2 to fully charge a vehicle.



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