On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Uche, I'm glad for your "simmer" (which still sounds hot to me----as it is
> 33 C here in Norfolk, and I'm on the first floor [Brit speak] without a.c).
>
Hmm. Perhaps that means there is no way to have such a discussion
reasonably at, say 20 C, which is rather an indicator of the problem I
suggest. I'll try to wind this one down.
I will point out that one of the things that makes this topic so tricky for
me (hence my having dithered with my TNB piece for over 6 months) is that so
many of my colleagues, at work, and in overall intellectual pursuit are
women whom I unfailingly respect. It would mortify me to think they thought
I was disrespecting them personally, so I have to walk a minefield of
disentangling differences of opinion with personal disregard.
Anyway, so please accept that I disagree, but I'm really not trying to be
disagreeable.
> For females there have been fewer title/label morphs. But for females and
> for blacks (female and male) there've been and continue to be *purposely*
> degrading names for them as a group and as individuals. It is these that I
> tend to bring to the attention of the one who has spoken them.
>
Slurs I covered in the first Tongue of Warfare post. To summarize my
position, I think intention to offend is important, even in the case of
slurs, or you end up with such nonsense as the recent TNB post that was
telling people to stop using the phrase "a chink in the armor". Language
that has consciously been associated with intention of abuse, however, is to
me different from the present topic.
http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/uogbuji/2009/06/tongue-of-warcraft-part-one%E2%80%94taboo-words/
> Your saying "Mrs President" was obviously not in that category! But it
> still surprised me because it felt "old-fashioned" to me. I think that it
> may've been a choice of honour-bestowing. Is that true? Much of the time,
> now that I'm an adult, I'm called "Madam" or "Ma'am", which is very
> old-fashioned to my ear, but I know, based upon the circumstances, location
> and speaker, that it is a deeply respectful title to give a woman.
>
Your first objection was to "Mr. President". You said that was sexist. My
response mentioned "Mrs. President", and Robin corrected me that "Madam
President" was more respectful, and I accepted that. I can see ground for
you picking a bone with me individually on that point, but that doesn't help
me understand your quarrel with the idea of using the term "Mr. President",
which is independent of the female form. You could argue that the use of
"Mr. P" is bad because it suggests to those unschooled in decorum that the
female equivalent would be "Mrs. P", but I don't think even that complaint
works. Robin's post reminded me that when I've heard, e.g. NPR interview
Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, they have *always* called her "Madam President".
That means that people do know the correct decorum for female presidents,
even if it slipped my own mind.
So I still can't buy an argument that having chosen to call Washington "Mr.
President" is sexist.
> Surnaming is another minefield of associations. Upon divorcing, I opted
> not
> to return to my "maiden" name (birth surname) because I preferred the name
> Prince-----beautiful and easy to be understood: "Like 'son of king'", I
> often say, in case the hearer's unsure.
>
This is a very different matter. I think this should always be a personal
choice for each woman, and that everyone else, including the husband (if
he's serious about the match), should respect that decision. Going even
further into fraught territory of kids, I think that should always be an
intra-family negotiation. We can perhaps all take lessons on that from gay
couples raising children. I don't see any reason why children should
automatically carry the surname of the father. But then that has more to do
with the actual res of identity politics, rather than distractions over
language conventions, and I suspect you and I will almost always be of
accord when it comes to res.
> I was well aware at the time of "keeping" my married surname that for males
> it's a non-issue. A couple male friends thought that my "rejecting"
> returning to my original family surname after divorce was insulting to my
> family. It had never occurred to me, and that is because females expected
> (then) to adopt a new name upon marriage. Not true any longer.
>
To me that attitude from some of your male friends smacks of slavish
adherence to convention. I want to be careful to state that such adherence
is not what I'm pursuing when we discuss "Mr. President". If convention
were to naturally change to something else, say "Dude da President" (with
"Dudette da President" the possible female form? Maybe not because e.g. my
wife uses "dude" in unisex fashion) It wouldn't bother me a whit. My
problem is with the idea that the original convention was sexist.
And yes, I really have no interest whatsoever in honorifics ("Dude da
President" is no less silly than some of the brocading you find out there),
so I should point out that is probably the main reason for my "Mrs.
President" slip. In Nigeria, everyone lines up to call themselves Alhaja
Chief Dr. Mrs. Prof. Engineer So-and-So, and I think it's soured me on the
whole business. I'll always be happy to be "Uche", or "Uchenna", if I'm in
trouble with my parents.
I guess I just haven't been oppressed enough.
> Judy feeling a definite cool breeze coming in the window! YAY!
>
Excellent. Maybe you're getting the system that left Boulder, where we had
a bit of snow yesterday morning, and have had a nice, sunny, but fairly cool
day today. Proof in pictures and (and old) poem:
http://uche.posterous.com/mid-spring-winter-the-pico-season-sesquiverna
--
Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net
Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com
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