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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Except that you need a Bishop to consecrate a church. John Briggs On 31/03/2010 10:00, Madeleine Gray wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Splendid. Interestingly, the vita makes no reference to the purpose of the salt, water and fire other than that it's for the church service - so it looks as though it's an embedded feature from an earlier version of the story in which the church is actually being consecrated. Part of my understanding of the vita is that it contains other embedded elements which point to changes in the ways that the lives of the Welsh saints were told, so this is a useful bit of evidence (as well as being fascinating in itself). > > Maddy > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Reader in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama) > > ________________________________ > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of Cate Gunn > Sent: Wed 31/03/2010 9:34 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219 > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture In the Pontificale I've looked at, salt, ashes and water are mixed together for the consecration of the church and altar. It would be interesting to know other ceremonies of dedication/consecration they are used for. - and thank you Stan Metheney for information on their symbolism > > Cate > > On 30 Mar 2010, at 19:28, Madeleine Gray wrote: > > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > I issed a bit of this strand but I'm struck by the references to salt, water and ashes. Is this specific to the rite for the consecration of a church, or of a priest? I ask because of a reference in the first, anonymous, vita of the Welsh saint Gwenfrewi or Winifred. At a key point in the story her tutor, Beuno, and her family, have gone to church but she is still in the house preparing fire, water and salt for the service. What kind of service would this have been, and what is her role as the person who brings the salt and water and (presumably) the ashes from the fire? > > Maddy > > > Dr Madeleine Gray > Reader in History > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > 'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama) > > ________________________________ > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of Stan Metheny > Sent: Tue 30/03/2010 6:25 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219 > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > FYI, most of this is still in the Roman Rite today, at least in the 1962 Pontifical (aka Extraordinary Form). Many (most?) of the medieval elements are still in there. Earlier this month there was a rare opportunity to witness (via online video) this rite, including the elements Cate mentions, being celebrated in the consecration of the new chapel of Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary in Denton, Nebraska (US). [The DVD has just been made available http://www.fsspolgs.org/dvd.html. Some good commentary - and some not so great commentary - was included with the live broadcast, as well as the Latin and English texts in a separate pdf. These may be on the DVD as well.] > > > > As for the symbolism of the elements in the Gregorian water, the traditional explanation is available in various online sources, and is usually along these lines. Salt is a symbol of wisdom, which is the power coming out of the cross, which the heavenly source of new life leads out into the world. Ashes are a symbol of penance. The salt is mixed with the ashes, then both with the water. Where the power coming from above mixes with the penitential acts, then the water of heavenly life is stirred. Lastly wine is blessed and mixed with the water, for that spring fructifies to grace and life in God. > > > > Stan Metheny > > > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cate Gunn > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:45 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219 > > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > > > According to Dominique Iogna-Prat, La Maison Dieu. Une histoire monumentale de l'Eglise au Moyen Age (v.800-v.1200) (Paris, 2006) -- which I believe I learned about from someone on this list -- this is part of the consecration rite that arose during the Carolingian period, and was performed by the officiating bishop, who entered the church alone while the rest of the officiants waited outside with the relics to be inserted in the altar. After inscribing the alphabets on the floor of the church, he exorcised, blessed and mixed the salt, water and cinders used for the aspersion of the church. He also prepared the mortar with which the relics would be sealed into their confessio in the altar. Finally, he blessed the whole building, its ornaments, vestments and liturgical vessels. He then left the church to join the other officiants outside, and after a litany and the blessing of the principal entrance, and a relic procession around the church, he preached a sermon before leading the procession with relics into the church. > Cheers, > > Jim > > > > This is very much the sort of thing I've read in the Pontificales - except the bishop enters the church with all the clergy after knocking on the door three times and calling 'Tollite portas'. One deacon had previously entered and closed the door. He responds 'Quis est rex glorie' and the third time the bishop answers, 'Dominus uirtutum ipse est rex glorie'. > > > > > > I suppose my next question will be about the significance of salt, water and ashes - symbolising life and death I presume? > > > > John Briggs > > > > Cate > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > Cate Gunn > [log in to unmask] > > > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html