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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Weren't ashes used in monastic funeral rites? St Louis famously died on a bed of ashes, as well. Cheers, Jim John Briggs wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > I think we've had this question before (and I think the question > revolved around whether a woman could act as server...): water and > salt would be used for any mass - the fire would just be fire: i.e. > for lighting candles, rather than for the ashes. The only time that I > can think of ashes being employed would be on Ash Wednesday. > > John Briggs > > > On 30/03/2010 19:28, Madeleine Gray wrote: >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >> culture >> >> I issed a bit of this strand but I'm struck by the references to >> salt, water and ashes. Is this specific to the rite for the >> consecration of a church, or of a priest? I ask because of a >> reference in the first, anonymous, vita of the Welsh saint Gwenfrewi >> or Winifred. At a key point in the story her tutor, Beuno, and her >> family, have gone to church but she is still in the house preparing >> fire, water and salt for the service. What kind of service would this >> have been, and what is her role as the person who brings the salt and >> water and (presumably) the ashes from the fire? >> >> Maddy >> >> Dr Madeleine Gray >> Reader in History >> School of Education/Ysgol Addysg >> University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd >> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, >> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 >> >> 'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama) >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious >> culture on behalf of Stan Metheny >> Sent: Tue 30/03/2010 6:25 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219 >> >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >> culture >> >> FYI, most of this is still in the Roman Rite today, at least in the >> 1962 Pontifical (aka Extraordinary Form). Many (most?) of the >> medieval elements are still in there. Earlier this month there was a >> rare opportunity to witness (via online video) this rite, including >> the elements Cate mentions, being celebrated in the consecration of >> the new chapel of Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary in Denton, Nebraska >> (US). [The DVD has just been made available >> http://www.fsspolgs.org/dvd.html. Some good commentary - and some not >> so great commentary - was included with the live broadcast, as well >> as the Latin and English texts in a separate pdf. These may be on the >> DVD as well.] >> >> >> >> As for the symbolism of the elements in the Gregorian water, the >> traditional explanation is available in various online sources, and >> is usually along these lines. Salt is a symbol of wisdom, which is >> the power coming out of the cross, which the heavenly source of new >> life leads out into the world. Ashes are a symbol of penance. The >> salt is mixed with the ashes, then both with the water. Where the >> power coming from above mixes with the penitential acts, then the >> water of heavenly life is stirred. Lastly wine is blessed and mixed >> with the water, for that spring fructifies to grace and life in God. >> >> >> >> Stan Metheny >> >> >> >> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious >> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cate Gunn >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:45 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219 >> >> >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >> culture >> >> >> >> >> >> >> According to Dominique Iogna-Prat, La Maison Dieu. Une histoire >> monumentale de l'Eglise au Moyen Age (v.800-v.1200) (Paris, 2006) -- >> which I believe I learned about from someone on this list -- this is >> part of the consecration rite that arose during the Carolingian >> period, and was performed by the officiating bishop, who entered the >> church alone while the rest of the officiants waited outside with the >> relics to be inserted in the altar. After inscribing the alphabets >> on the floor of the church, he exorcised, blessed and mixed the salt, >> water and cinders used for the aspersion of the church. He also >> prepared the mortar with which the relics would be sealed into their >> confessio in the altar. Finally, he blessed the whole building, its >> ornaments, vestments and liturgical vessels. He then left the church >> to join the other officiants outside, and after a litany and the >> blessing of the principal entrance, and a relic procession around the >> church, he preached a sermon before leading the procession with >> relics into the church. >> Cheers, >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> >> >> This is very much the sort of thing I've read in the Pontificales - >> except the bishop enters the church with all the clergy after >> knocking on the door three times and calling 'Tollite portas'. One >> deacon had previously entered and closed the door. He responds 'Quis >> est rex glorie' and the third time the bishop answers, 'Dominus >> uirtutum ipse est rex glorie'. >> >> >> >> >> >> I suppose my next question will be about the significance of salt, >> water and ashes - symbolising life and death I presume? >> >> >> >> >> >> thank you everyone for your help so far! especially Rosemary for >> pointing me in the direction of episcopal registers - I'm pretty >> sure, although we're in the north of the county, the parish was in >> the London diocese. >> >> Cate >> >> >> >> >> AndrewLarsen wrote: >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarlydiscussions of medieval religion >> and culture >> >> >> >> Might the use of the abcedarium be related to Christ's status >> as the Alpha and the Omega, ie the totality of the alphabet? >> >> >> >> Andrew E. Larsen >> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:34 AM, John >> Briggs<[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval >> religion and culture >> >> >> >> On 30/03/2010 12:04, Cate Gunn wrote: >> >> The consecration ceremonies (in the 10th cent. >> Pontificale Lanaletense and the 12th century Pontifical of Magdalen >> college) require the 'abcdarium' to be inscribed in the corners of >> the church - would this be the whole alphabet? What was the >> significance of this? >> >> >> >> The abcedarium (the whole alphabet) is inscribed (in >> ashes or sand) diagonally across the church from corner to corner, >> once in the Latin alphabet and the other time in the Greek alphabet. >> What was the significance of this? Well, the best guess (see John >> Wordsworth, On the Consectration of Churches, Especially in the >> Church of England: A Lecture [1899]) is that this is replicating the >> initiation ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, first communion) i.e. >> welcoming the church building as a member of the Christian community! >> The earliest ordos have the catechism with elements (e.g. the Creed) >> in both Latin and Greek. >> >> >> >> John Briggs >> >> >> >> Cate >> >> [log in to unmask] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order >> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, >> visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order >> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, >> visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] >> To send a message to the list, address it to: >> [log in to unmask] >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >> to: [log in to unmask] >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] >> For further information, visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >> >> > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html