Dear X-ray Community, I'm sorry to have dragged you all along on this journey. There is something to Ian and Marc's arguments but I have been unable to understand their point. That is my failure and I don't wish to subject the rest of you to continued argument. Ian, Marc, and I should get together in a bar somewhere and hash this out. Dale Tronrud Gerard Bricogne wrote: > Dear all, > > Two slight confusions seem to have popped up intermittently in this > thread, in messages other than those included here. The first one was > related to the charge of the electron - even the colour code according to > which its electron density should be displayed - and the other one to its > mass, i.e. the assumption that the word "density" was to be taken literally > as being in some way connected to a mass by unit volume. > > Regarding the first, the sign of the charge plays no role, as shown by > the fact that the Thomson scattering formula involves the square of the > electron charge. This could be seen as an instance of TCP invariance: a free > positron would scatter X-rays to exactly the same degree as a free electron. > If there is something that would deserve to be called a unit in the original > context of this question, i.e. a unit for structure factors, it would be (as > was pointed out by many contributors) the X-ray scattering power of a free > electron (or positron). A pedantic name for such a unit could be "electron > qua X-ray scatterer", which the general aversion to Latin would immediately > shorten to "electron", thereby explaining the current practice. At least the > pedantic name would have the merit of making it clear that we are not > referring to the electron in relation to its charge, but in relation to its > scattering behaviour towards X-rays. > > Regarding the second, the word "density" has long been freed from its > original connection with mass. For instance one speaks about a "probability > density", which is stripped of any physical association and is related to > the notion of a measure in the theory of integration. One even encounters > the expression "number density" independently of any notion of probability, > to designate a concentration of things that can be counted (as opposed to > measured). The meaning of density, as has again been explained by several > contributors, is that the density of 'whatever' is the amount of 'whatever' > per unit volume; so that integrating it over a specified region delivers a > result in the unit in which 'whatever' is measured. Replacing 'whatever' by > X-ray scattering power measured in units of "electron qua X-ray scatterer" - > or just "electron" - would seem to make everything that has been said > consistent. > > To get back to the original question: if the reference X-ray scatterer > was taken to be the proton (or antiproton), then the numerical values of f0, > f' and f" giving the strength of the anomalous scattering of *electrons* > would obviously change, so there is indeed an underlying dimensionality to > these numbers via Thomson's formula; but since crystallographers live off > X-ray scattering from electrons, such a change of units would seem a rather > daft idea, the possibility of which I would not expect to have occurred to > any journal editor or reviewer while staring at Table I ... - so if we have > such a natural unit for what we are looking at, f0, f', f" are, for all > intents and purposes, pure numbers. > > I hope this long message is only minimally eristic, and rather more > dialectical :-)) ... . > > > With best wishes, > > Gerard. > > -- > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 07:19:48AM -0800, James Holton wrote: >> I suppose I could point out that the letter "e" has many more "universal" >> meanings that just denoting electric charge, such the base of the natural >> logarithm, the identity element in set theory, or even a musical note. >> But, today I found that "e" can also stand for "eristic", a new word I >> learned while reading the following web page: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_war >> >> -James Holton >> MAD Scientist >> >> >> Ian Tickle wrote: >>>> Yes, I think this is exactly the point. 'Electrons' gives the whole thing >>>> a consistent meaning. >>> The big problem with statements like 'f = 10e' or 'rho = 1.5e/Å^3' is of >>> course that they are dimensionally invalid, and I'm surprised that people >>> are not doing such simple checks! For example I think we've all agreed >>> that 'f' is defined as the ratio of two amplitudes and is therefore >>> dimensionless, whereas 'e' is universally defined as the electronic >>> charge, which in SI units has the value 1.602176487×10^−19 coulombs, >>> but obviously has the dimensions of electric charge (time*electric current >>> in terms of the base SI dimensions). So we have a real apples & oranges >>> situation! >>> >>> You could of course get around this by redefining 'f' as I suggested >>> previously, as the free point equivalent charge, but to avoid confusion we >>> should call it something else, so let's say: >>> >>> Notation >>> ======== >>> f: "atomic scattering factor", defined as the ratio of scattered amplitude >>> for an atom to that for a free electron (dimensionless). >>> g: "atomic scattering free point equivalent charge", defined as the free >>> point charge which scatters with the same amplitude as the atom >>> (dimensions of electric charge). >>> >>> Now we can validly write 'g = 10e' since we have dimensions of charge on >>> both sides. >>> >>> This again highlights the importance of 1) rigorously defining all >>> quantities in use, and 2) that the definition and the dimensions are >>> linked: you cannot arbitrarily change the dimensions of some quantity >>> without also changing its definition, or vice versa; and in particular you >>> can't mix the definition of 'f' with the units of 'g', which is what seems >>> to be happening here! >>> >>> This logical inconsistency can only be resolved by recognising that 'f' is >>> a pure number so removing the 'e' unit. The same argument obviously >>> applies to anything derived from 'f' such as the structure factor and the >>> electron density. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> -- Ian >>> >>> >>> Disclaimer >>> This communication is confidential and may contain privileged information >>> intended solely for the named addressee(s). It may not be used or >>> disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent. If you are >>> not the intended recipient you must not review, use, disclose, copy, >>> distribute or take any action in reliance upon it. If you have received >>> this communication in error, please notify Astex Therapeutics Ltd by >>> emailing [log in to unmask] and destroy all copies of the >>> message and any attached documents. Astex Therapeutics Ltd monitors, >>> controls and protects all its messaging traffic in compliance with its >>> corporate email policy. 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