Which Jamie is this? No matter.

I haven't time to get into this now and I won't be here for the rest of the week. But yes, the too simple equation between mainstream and cliche - A very difficult one. I don't mean that the poetry itself is full of cliches so much that the notions behind it, about personality, communication and the function of poetry, are so well established and accepted as the norm that they have become emotionally and intellectually meaningless in the same way as a cliche, and that the subjects chosen to write about and the thoughts expressed about those subjects and the emotions they are supposed to induce are predictable to the point of cliche. I don't include all mainstream poetry in this of course, but at least half of it, which is quite a lot - I am certainly talking about that great mass of stuff that swirls around in the lower divisions, but those people take their models of inspiration from the Armitages etc.. I am also talking just a little less than 'current' by the way - when I say mainstream I generally mean the mainstream as it developed in the middle 80's up to the present.

The subject of identity IS very important as one of the main markers of a type of poetry that could fit snugly into mainstream models without upsetting anything. It is just one of the markers though, but definitely relevant with regards to the subject of Black/Asian writing and feminism. Sorry, I'd like to say a lot more on this but I just haven't the time at the moment..... Your middle paragraph below sums up what I think except that I would never say such poetry has no value as art - it's just that it has very little value for ME as art.

Cheers

Tim A.