Yunus

Ah, but he was a mathematician, so his interpretation was based on imaginary ideas!
We have probably messed it up. If we got our act together as a species (sensu: collection of governments), we could still save the environment, but the short-termists and the cynics will probably see to it that the profits of industry are preserved for long enough to wipe out more than half of all the species, and wreck the lives of billions of humans.  Yet as you suggest, that other powerful and prevailing force identified by Einstein will still prevail for as long as conditions allow it. From my point of view, I call it 'evolution', which is the way things have come to work after many trials over long time periods that have eliminated other ways. So don't despair yet. I'm not surprised that people rely on magic to explain the world; it is mind boggling. I'm not going to tell people what they can or can't believe, but we shouldn't confuse such beliefs with testable science.  It's OK to say, "I don't know".
There's another thing we can say that maybe could bridge the gap between religion and science: 'Love your children and their world'. 
Perhaps that too will be dismissed as sentimentality by industrialists.
Tom

At 14:06 11/02/2010, Mohamed Yunus Yasin wrote:
 
Tom,
 
it is only an oxymoron in the way you define those 2 words. Not all have the same defination. Personally, I am 'pissed' with God, if he does exist, but in a postmodern world, I do not really care......however, dunno if i forwarded this before to this list, but if i did, here it is again (sorry). as for this Spenser 'idiot', I personally think Human has 'worn-out' their welcome on earth, so let the business as usual go on, until Mother Earth (yikes, could this be GOD?) gets rid of this pest of a species........
 

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Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.

 

However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.

 

But, on the other hand, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naïve.

 

 

 

                                                                                Albert Einstein                                               

Letter dated January 24, 1936

Quoted in Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann

Albert Einstein: The Human Side (pp. 32-4)
                                Taken from “Scientifically Speaking”, Carl C Gaither and Alma E Cavazos-Gaither
 
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:35:45 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Roy Spencer: "This is the warmest January in the 32-year satellite-based data record"
To: [log in to unmask]

Alastair
Wow! an 'evolutionary creationist'. That is an oxymoron if ever there was one. Then "the scientific end of the 'intelligent design' argument"!!!!!  That's two oxymorons in the first few words, good going.
 
Please! There is no science in intelligent design, just fairies.  The place for them is the bottom of the garden, and not here, surely. 
 
If this bloke Spencer is a climate change denialist, then as with all of those types, his opinion is based on no data or other verifiable evidence. The entire 'sceptic' argument is based on either presenting bogus 'evidence' or avoiding looking at it at all.  Whether his belief in God, fairies, Darth Vader or Sauron the Great coincides with yours or not is of no relevance and gives his argument not one shred of credibility.
Tom
From: Discussion list for the Crisis Forum [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alastair McIntosh [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 09 February 2010 20:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Roy Spencer: "This is the warmest January in the 32-year satellite-based data record"

In terms of the mapping you suggest, George, an interesting aspect of Spencer is that he is an evolutionary creationist - http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=080805I
 
I actually have respect for the scientific end of the "intelligent design" argument because I do consider that spirituality is at the core of our being and infused through matter. I think we need to be careful not to be reductionist in what we consider matter to be.  That said, I note that Spencer seems to reject the scientific dynamics of pantheism, or panentheism as I would prefer to nuance it with its opening to "process theology",  and seems to be going instead  for full-on simple creationism. That does seem to clash with sceintific observation and therefore might raise questions about his wider scientific judgement.
 
But ... a note of caution ... we have to be careful that we don't unwittingly replicate a kind of police mentality towards those with whom we disagree. Does our "mapping" or whatever shed light on a particular mindset and its associated pressing public issues, or is it just a venting of the propensity often inherent in human beings to sling mud?
 
I have been challenging myself on this after receiving an email from sombody who I respect about Peter Taylor whose books,  "Shiva's Rainbow" and "Chill",  I reviewed on Amazon as previously drawn to your attention. Taylor's take on science, his wacky relation to it as I see it, is clearly potentially relevant to how he might filter the climate change debate. So is his wider view on what causes the problems of the world -  women, Freemasons, Ninja warriors, etc.. However, I am actually in the course of editing the Shiva review to remove what I quoted there about the Californian beauties, since it adds sexual colour but not information, and there's a twist in that which I don't feel comfortable with after hearing from this person who clearly respects Peter Taylor as a person, albeit one whose relationship to reality might sometimes be questionable.
 
I find that these are uncomfortable issues because they internalise within onself the tensions inherent in trying to "go heavy on the issues, but gentle on the people." As I have discussed in my writing on landlordism, often it's not easy to make that distinction because the issues can be so bound up with the person. We may therefore have adversaries, but the moral challenge to us as activists is how to treat them respectfully as worthy adversaries. I can't speak for others, but I find that very difficult in some of my work.
 
Alastair.
 
 
 
From: George Marshall [ mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 08 February 2010 09:54
To: Alastair McIntosh
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Roy Spencer: "This is the warmest January in the 32-year satellite-based data record"

Yes curious indeed coming from Spencer. One of the reasons why I feel such comtempt for the professional deniers (which much include Spencer) is the way that they will happily associate with other contrarians holding totally different positions that contradict their own- including positions that, from whatever distorted position of reality they hold, they know to be rubbish. This means that their identity as skeptics and their peer identification with active campaigning against action on climate change is stronger for them than the content of what they say. Whilst leftists and progressives arge passionately about small variations in positions these sods happily club together without any actual agreement at all  (other than about their combined role)

I would love someone to map the positions of the people who attended, for eg, the Heartland Insititute Deniers Conference in New York, map out their postions and show how the different between them is as great as their collective difference with the mainstream. - a job for a MSc student?

x
G
Alastair McIntosh wrote:
Folks
 
I've been trying to find out what the latest global average temperature figures are during this cold snap we've been having vis-a-vis claims that we're heading for a global cooling. .
 
This is came out on Thursday  - http://www.drroyspencer.com/ . Spencer appears to be using data not yet updated at source on the web, but presumably he has advance access as the U.S. Science Team leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer flying on NASA’s Aqua satellite.
 
The significance of his concluding that January 2010 was exceptionally warm is that Spencer is an anthropogenic global warming skeptic, as noted here:
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/dailypolitics/andrewneil/2010/02/2010_will_be_a_very_warm_year.html
 
At one point in his blog he concedes: "We don’t hide the data or use tricks, folks…it is what it is."
 
A.
 
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