medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
... so are medieval effigies all of more-or-less 33-year olds? And other images maybe, too (Generic saints?)
Later on, in the C15, this is emphatically not the case: the newfangled idea of the portrait puts paid to that. Bishop Beckyngton at Wells, proudly vested in his episcopal robes with his carved cadaver beneath, may or may not be a portrait but he's certainly meant to look like one, and he's not particularly young either. But what of the C13 and C14?
Jon
> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 00:42:58 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> An example of this can be found in Aquinas' exposition of the
> Apostles' Creed when he enumerates the qualities of resurrected
> bodies:
>
> "Quarta conditio est quantum ad aetatem, quia omnes resurgent in
> aetate perfecta, idest triginta trium vel duorum annorum. Cuius ratio
> est, quia qui nondum pervenerunt ad hoc, non habent aetatem perfectam,
> et senes hanc iam amiserunt: et ideo iuvenibus et pueris addetur quod
> deest, senibus vero restituetur. Ephes. IV, 13: donec occurramus omnes
> in (...) virum perfectum, in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi."
>
> http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/csv.html
>
>
> 2010/1/4 Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > This may be a bit woolly and OT, but was it not / is it not / believed in some quarters that at the Resurrection we shall ALL be 33 years old, no matter what our biological age at death, because that is the age of Christ at his death & resurrection ?
> >
> > (I certainly LIKE the idea! wherever it comes from.)
> >
> > To put this into a medieval context, does not the author of the mystical poem "Pearl" encounter his dead daughter in a dream / vision and, although she had died as a young child, she is presented / presents herself / to him as an adult woman wearing a crown and tells him that all are kings and queens in the Kingdom of Heaven. ??
> >
> > I may have a copy of "Pearl" (the girl's name was probably Margaret) and tomorrow I will try to look this one up if someone else hasn't beaten me to it ....
> >
> > BMC
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jon Cannon
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 10:31 PM
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I'm not sure if this is relevant to your endeavours (or even a red herring) but I've sometimes seen it suggested that medieval tomb effigies, in which the personage is invariably (apart of course from transi tombs) a youngish and idealised 'type' of knight/king/whatever, are partly an evocation condition expected of their body at the General Resurrection.
> >
> > I'd suggest a ref for this, but last time I did that my recollection of it was so wincingly volte-face to the reality that I barely dare to say more now....
> >
> > J
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 11:56:14 -0600
> > > From: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > > Thanks Marjorie and Claire for your comments. I intend to devote some time this winter and spring to the theme of the resurrection in medieval art, so I will be back with some further insights as they come to me. It is surprising that there is not a lot of research being done on this theme, unless I am totally in the dark in terms of research that is going on now. Steve
> > >
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Claire Renkin [[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:38 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > > Dear Marjorie and Steve,
> > >
> > > From the evidence of your photo, Marjorie it looks like the fresco represents the iconographic theme known as the Man of Sorrows . The representation of Christ is not historical, because as you noted he appears upright in the tomb. It is a devotional theme and suggests in the words of Henk van Os a "comprehensive image of Christ's suffering." Some images of the Man of Sorrows also hint at the Resurrection by including such details as Christ gesturing to the wound in his side, or more directly showing Christ gazing to the viewer.
> > > Again based on the photo, the date of the fresco looks to me like late 14thc.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Claire Renkin
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Marjorie Greene<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > > Thanks for the enlightenment, Steve. My first impression was "Resurrection," but I must have caught the habit of not trusting first impressions from my students.
> > > I'm afraid I have no idea of the date of this work. Looking at it while Roman traffic whizzes by and with the sight of the Wedding Cake out of the corner of my eye is surreal. I've seen it for years but absolutely no progress on the scavi is obvious. Same situation year after year. I'd like to jump into the excavation area... Eventually it will probably be superb to visit.
> > > MG
> > >
> > > Marjorie Greene
> > > http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 12/31/09, McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:28 PM
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > > Dear Majorie et al,
> > >
> > > I just added the message to the site: Although Christ appears dead, he is ascending from the tomb and the fact that the lamb carries the banner of victory, this has to be the resurrection.
> > >
> > > Do you know the date of this fresco?
> > >
> > > Steve
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Marjorie Greene [[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:19 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > > Steven et al,
> > > I just added an album to the medrelart site: Ara Coeli in the left column top album and set as the album cover a picture of the Resurrection that is found in the scavi near Ara Coeli church and very close to the Vittorio Emanuele monument. The picture in question is the last in the album. The other photos are of the church, including a momument/tomb/something of Saint Helena.
> > > MG
> > >
> > > Marjorie Greene
> > > http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 12/30/09, McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > To: [log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 5:40 PM
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > > Thank you, Jim, for the reference to this work of art. I am looking at the portrayal of resurrection in many different places, especially in medieval theological tracts, sermons and art. I started my research with the assumption that medieval art was almost totally focused on the passion and death of Jesus. I have seen so far that this is far from the truth. Certainly the passion and death of Jesus is the central focus, but I have been surprised at how much medieval art does focus on the resurrection of Christ.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Steve
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]><http:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Dr Jim Bugslag [[log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]><http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:29 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]<http:[log in to unmask]><http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > >
> > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > >
> > > Dear Steve,
> > > This is not quite what you asked for, but this reminded me of Matthias
> > > Grunewald's Isenheim Altarpiece which, when closed, shows a famously
> > > gruesome dead Christ on the Cross, but when opened, a resurrected Christ
> > > that might, at least approximately, be considered to have the qualities
> > > you list.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > McMichael, Steven J. wrote:
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> > > >
> > > > I am working on the death scene of Francis of Assisi in which his dead body miraculously is transformed into the "resurrection body", i.e., it takes on the four endowments: impassibility (impassibilitas), clarity (claritas), agility (agilitas), and subtlety or elusiveness (subtilitas). Are there other saints in the middle ages in which the hagiographer makes such a claim about the body of the saint after his/her death?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance of any replies,
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Steven J. McMichael, OFM Conv.
> > > > Theology Department
> > > > University of Saint Thomas
> > > > Saint Paul, MN USA
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